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Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

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Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#271
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Just that we shouldn't recognize that depression can be a chemical issue because that doesn't help us fix the problem? Are you saying that anti-depressants don't work? So if depression is more about mental models, life choices, and drive and whatever, why do so many people suffer from depression in cycles? There is little change from one day to the next, and yet, many pe…

Okay how about a new analogy: Your web app malfunctions, and a diagnostic sweep suggests the code is compromised. It's cloud hosted and open source. You're part of a team and see various recent revisions that could have exposed the app to malicious use. Furthermore your cloud provider is upgrading their hardware. Your app has to come offline whilst it's patched. Its a critical service for some clients who are houndin…

I think I might have a slightly more apt analogy, though I do understand yours and pretty much agree.

To immediately jump to the "chemical imbalance" problem/solution is like if you have a web app that's performing really slow, so you hire a consultant to take a look.

They tell you that you need to horizontally scale your app in order for it to perform better. In many cases, this would actually work (for a while anyway), but it probably doesn't explain the real issue.

In reality, the problem could be that you wrote your app to do way too many things per request rather than picking and choosing which things are going to be treated as first-class. Perhaps there's even one little thing that's O(n^2) and it simply is going to take a lot of time to work out.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#272
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am increasingly confident I suffer from depression, rather than just being generically miserable. How do you deal with the trust issues posed by that questionnaire? I have suicidal thoughts most days, but I'm concerned that revealing this to an NHS doctor would quickly result in my freedom of choice on what happens next being taken from me. Seems like one of the few cases where US healthcare (where you are explicit…

Not a doctor but have experienced something like what you're describing. It is important to be open with your doctor about this stuff because it allows them to accelerate getting you help. Differentiating between suicidal thoughts and intentions (the former of which I had, the latter I did not) made me comfortable enough to have the conversation. Really though, seek help. It is unlikely you'd lose choices (eg be sect…

That's a good point - thanks. "Thoughts" rather than "intentions" is definitely more aligned with where I am. Part of the trouble for me and presumably a lot of people is untangling those things - for example, would my thoughts be intentions if not for having a spouse, who I could never imagine hurting in that way by leaving? Moreover, does the mere presence of that kind of "blocker" represent a positive sign?

I pick at this stuff in my own head all the time, and just don't have enough confidence in doctors to believe they could tell me anything new. Being able to skip straight to pharmaceutical or other non-talking solutions via a disclaimer would probably mean a lot more people like me would seek help.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#273
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great Post, thank you for sharing. I do take issue with the commonly parroted claim that depression can be a chemical imbalance. It's a notion arising from pharma marketing psyops, and is largely without utility. It even risks being an antipattern. The few pros include separating responsibility and thus alleviating some guilt, which often coexists with depression, and annoying spiritualists. Tell me if I missed any.…

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Just that we shouldn't recognize that depression can be a chemical issue because that doesn't help us fix the problem? Are you saying that anti-depressants don't work? So if depression is more about mental models, life choices, and drive and whatever, why do so many people suffer from depression in cycles? There is little change from one day to the next, and yet, many pe…

The discussion is often over-simplified in one direction or another, so thank you for bringing up post-partum depression and depression that can be influenced by hormonal cycles. (And by the way, men can also experience post-partum depression -- men also go through hormonal and life changes when bringing home a baby.)

We're all a product of our thoughts, our environment, and the mediating chemicals in our brains and guts. I'll throw in a different complex connection: the connection between hormones (estrogen and progesterone) and histamine. A woman can have seasonal allergies that wax and wane monthly due to the role estrogen plays in regulating mast cell release of histamine. The environment may stay the same over that month, but the chemical soup changes. This change may also be further mediated by what the person eats, as consuming high-histamine foods on top of that might be enough to really set off a physical reaction. Because we're talking about seasonal allergies here, few people would find this controversial.

So, let's move to the mind and emotions, which are certainly more controversial. All these factors are still there. Yes, CBT can be enormously helpful in getting you out of cognitive traps that decrease the quality of your life experience. At the same time, it can be true that you've been eating a diet that is not good for you and your stomach hurts all of the time not because of anxiety but because of your food. Let's take me for instance: I'm in grad school, I'm not feeling good, having trouble getting out of bed, I'm trying to drag myself through the thesis on caffeine and sugar, I keep beating myself up because I'm not as brilliant as Gauss or Kovalevskaya or even that guy who got that TT job at Virginia Tech and I have writer's block, I see the psych person at the health center 'cause why not. She says I have stress-induced stomach problems. Mindfulness doesn't help. What finally helps? An elimination diet that allows me to discover that one simple trick (eliminating a type of food) makes my stomach not hurt, means I don't wake up tired and hurting in the mornings, etc! Amazing to sleep and then wake up rested! Suddenly I have half the problems I had before and have more energy to deal with them. I'm still not Gauss, and that takes another 10 years of life progress to acknowledge. Whatever.

There are many ways to attack problems. Change the input, change the process, change the environment, decide the desired output isn't actually desired. Childhood experiences, diet and exercise (physical upkeep), the "shit life" phenomenon another poster mentions, hormones and chemical imbalances. Therapy is not the cure to everything. Neither is medication. Neither is diet. Sometimes we actually need reform so that people aren't stalked by medical debt or huge bills for having their kids put into foster care or whatever (lots of literature on the connection between financial instability and depression).

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#274
post #57

“I don’t procrastinate anymore,” he added. “I’m sleeping better. I completely quit alcohol. I’m walking my dog and playing the guitar again, for nothing more than the sheer joy of it.” Most importantly, he said, “I’m remaining positive and being respectful of others. These are big changes in my life.” Serious question: are these typical signs of depression? Now I'm wondering if I have depression.

Well now I wonder what the side effects are. Because if they are not serious I wouldn’t mind taking this drug just as a matter of course.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#275
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a doctor but have experienced something like what you're describing. It is important to be open with your doctor about this stuff because it allows them to accelerate getting you help. Differentiating between suicidal thoughts and intentions (the former of which I had, the latter I did not) made me comfortable enough to have the conversation. Really though, seek help. It is unlikely you'd lose choices (eg be sect…

That's a good point - thanks. "Thoughts" rather than "intentions" is definitely more aligned with where I am. Part of the trouble for me and presumably a lot of people is untangling those things - for example, would my thoughts be intentions if not for having a spouse, who I could never imagine hurting in that way by leaving? Moreover, does the mere presence of that kind of "blocker" represent a positive sign? I pick…

> Being able to skip straight to pharmaceutical or other non-talking solutions via a disclaimer would probably mean a lot more people like me would seek help.

Antidepressants are strong stuff. Some years ago I hit a bit of a snag and went to a doctor and got just this, a prescription after five minutes of talking with helpful advice like "get a girlfriend" or "study something else". Stuff really worked... except in the wrong direction. Not an exception either, common enough they put "suicide" as a side effect in the fine print. I think if you're gonna take something like that you need some kind of feedback/monitoring and test different drugs until you might find something that works right. A hands off fire and forget prescription like I got likely won't work for most people.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#276
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took me a while to realize that most people don't consider suicide as one of a few strategies to deal with everyday problems. Thought process: I don't want to do my homework. I could (A) get up and do it, or (B) kill myself. Happily, I've learned to dissociate myself from the part of my consciousness that thinks that way.

My thinking is slightly different in this case then yours: Ending it today will stop having to do x today, tomorrow and rest of my life. So it's not just the homework of the day. But due to my thinking I would also not just go without consuming my money and doing only what I want as long as possible as it also freed me from certain social boundaries. Like suicide is bad, you need to work, lifing as long as possible i…

My thinking was always comparing it to a crappy movie at a middle of nowhere theater. Sure the movie may be bad, but it still beats getting up and leaving.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#277

While depression can certainly be caused by chemical imbalance and not because of how your unconscious mind impacts/limits your experience of life, I took the approach that exploring my subconscious through therapy was the way to get out. For me it worked very well and I think the journey is an amazing one to go on. Building from the ground up and understanding all the foundations within. I always wonder about treatm…

I agree about dreams, but I don't know that Jung was quite so prescriptive; he tends to eschew frameworks himself. He essentially says about dreams: we don't know why they work, but they do.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#278
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great Post, thank you for sharing. I do take issue with the commonly parroted claim that depression can be a chemical imbalance. It's a notion arising from pharma marketing psyops, and is largely without utility. It even risks being an antipattern. The few pros include separating responsibility and thus alleviating some guilt, which often coexists with depression, and annoying spiritualists. Tell me if I missed any.…

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Just that we shouldn't recognize that depression can be a chemical issue because that doesn't help us fix the problem? Are you saying that anti-depressants don't work? So if depression is more about mental models, life choices, and drive and whatever, why do so many people suffer from depression in cycles? There is little change from one day to the next, and yet, many pe…

What they are trying to say is that depression pills are as helpful as vitamin supplements are for sports.

If you happen to be a top athlete that’s just not getting enough vitamins, the supplements might help a bit (not as much as correcting the diet though). If you are a couch potato, you might have a Vitamine imbalance, and the supplements might correct it, but the supplements won’t turn the couch potato into a top athlete.

That would require a complete lifestyle change. From maybe new sport affine friends, to better diet, motivation, schedule, training routines, and a big time investment.

The analogy of the OP is that curing depression with pills “is like” trying to turn a couch potato into a top athlete using pills. The fact that the pills do something doesn’t mean that they achieve the goal.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#279
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Just that we shouldn't recognize that depression can be a chemical issue because that doesn't help us fix the problem? Are you saying that anti-depressants don't work? So if depression is more about mental models, life choices, and drive and whatever, why do so many people suffer from depression in cycles? There is little change from one day to the next, and yet, many pe…

Okay how about a new analogy: Your web app malfunctions, and a diagnostic sweep suggests the code is compromised. It's cloud hosted and open source. You're part of a team and see various recent revisions that could have exposed the app to malicious use. Furthermore your cloud provider is upgrading their hardware. Your app has to come offline whilst it's patched. Its a critical service for some clients who are houndin…

> We know sure that neurotransmitters have a role in mental health

While they have a "role", differences in neurotransmitter levels do not predict mental health state.

My understanding is that "chemical imbalance" theory was a popular misunderstanding of a more limited and specific theory called the ”catecholamine hypothesis" which has itself been pretty much debunked.

For decades the explanatory psychiatric theory behind depression has been the the "bio-psycho-social" model. While we know that biology is an import part of the picture, that part can include a bunch of different factors besides neurochemi cals, such as possibly inflammation, neuron growth factors and more.

[0] https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/debunking-two-chemical...

> Equating depression to monoamine derangement was a very attractive notion for all but in 30 years remains unproven, and not very helpful in guiding treatment.

I believe that theory has been mostly disproven, but that doesn't change solid evidence behind the efficacy antidepressants that were developed using that theory.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#280

While depression can certainly be caused by chemical imbalance and not because of how your unconscious mind impacts/limits your experience of life, I took the approach that exploring my subconscious through therapy was the way to get out. For me it worked very well and I think the journey is an amazing one to go on. Building from the ground up and understanding all the foundations within. I always wonder about treatm…

I agree about dreams, but I don't know that Jung was quite so prescriptive; he tends to eschew frameworks himself. He essentially says about dreams: we don't know why they work, but they do.

From my limited readings I think you are correct, Jung's technique seems very dissimilar to Freud's. AFAIU Jung emphasized that the terminology used unconsciously by the patient in first describing a dream contained most if not all material from which to derive potential theraputic benefit, and that dwelling on some deeper meaning or symbolism was generally a waste of time as then the patient (or therapist!) begins seeing what they want to see.
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