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Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#171
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the important & useful of the two endpoints they measured. Anything will have a positive effect on depression if it comes with a lot of high-tech vodoo and people in lab coats. Only it won't last and it will the "yeah, I guess I'm feeling better"-level of improvement.

> Only it won't last and it will the "yeah, I guess I'm feeling better"-level of improvement. Who says it won't last? Most depressions actually do get better by themselves. How do you think humanity has survived so far? (Most, but not all. And even if it eventually gets better without meds, there was still a lot of suffering.)

It's quite possible humanity has survived because most people never get depressed. You need to be quite clear about definitions to have a meaningful conversation on this.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#172

I'm surprised nobody's linked to the recent time this was on HN [1]. Having tried TMS pretty extensively, I do not think this will help me, but I am hopeful that it might prove useful for others. [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29562785

Which machines did you use for your rTMS? Or did you do something besides rTMS of the clinically available noninvasive types[1]? [1] https://www.uptodate.com/contents/unipolar-depression-in-adu...

Looking it up, they used NeuroStar machines, though (obviously) not for 10 hour stretches.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#173
I've been dealing with depression, or rather, a couple of months with productivity where I really work my ass off producing great stuff, then have an as long downtime where I just manage to get by. Any choir was tough to start doing and completing. After being diagnosed with both ADD and ASD.1 I also was diagnosed with Bipolar 3/4. Did not even know they existed but they trigger these hypomania periods. Turns out that hypomania is pretty good for working in IT and you can hide and get by the rest of the year. On the other hand, now that when I feel that the depression is completely gone, I discover that I'm entering a hypomaniac period. What a way to ruin all the fun. The awareness around it is quite low from where I'm from sadly. I wonder how well SAINT would affect.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#174
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that apply to things you 'have' to do as well? I don't really like shopping for groceries, but I'd rather do that, than order take out that's expensive and probably not very healthy. If I'm going to cook something, I'd rather cook something with a different taste than eat pasta again. I don't really want to do laundry, but I do want to have clean clothes that don't smell. If I could afford to do so I wouldn't wo…

> I don't really like shopping for groceries Have you tried a delivery service? Walmart as an example charges $100 or so a year. And then you pay a tip to the delivery person. I think it's worth it to avoid shopping in person, and cheaper than ordering delivery from restaurants.

My wife suffers from agoraphobia and is autistic. We (honestly: she, as she arranges it) do something similar, but we don't live in a country with tipping culture, so its a flat 100 EUR or so (you can also pay per delivery then the price fluctuates, a decent way to evaluate). Sure, it has cons. Sometimes stuff isn't fresh (report, and get your money back), or the expiration date doesn't suit our planning. Sometimes stuff isn't available or its not included. But it really does help, especially if you have difficulty leaving the house for any reason (we got little kids as well). I also find covid-19 a good reason to not go to the grocery store. However, you miss out on the fresh air and increase lack of movement. Get your little children out, for example to the local playground. A dog can help with that, too. And finally, have a buffer storage esp. with regards to non-perishables, just ensure your house or apartment can deal with the extra storage (e.g. we got an American fridge/freezer).

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#175
post #76

Huh, I've been talking to my therapist about my antidepressants not being terribly effective anymore. Is there a way to sign up for a clinical trial for this?

Yes--per the last line of the article:

If you're interested in participating in a study, please email sainttmsstudy@stanford.edu.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#176
While depression can certainly be caused by chemical imbalance and not because of how your unconscious mind impacts/limits your experience of life, I took the approach that exploring my subconscious through therapy was the way to get out.

For me it worked very well and I think the journey is an amazing one to go on. Building from the ground up and understanding all the foundations within. I always wonder about treatments which don't have this benefit, although the results in terms of lifestyle change sound extremely positive.

One of the hardest parts of therapy is diagnosis of what to work on. Even though an issue will be "presenting" itself clearly, it can often be a bit of a decoy. For example, a lack of self-esteem is often a useful derivative of an unconscious fear of upsetting others. Low self-esteem => avoid situations/behaviours that upset others.

During therapy I found dreams, when analysed outside of the "conventional" Freudian/Jungian frameworks provided a simple and accurate method of reaching the root diagnosis (the fear of upsetting others vs. the decoy issue of low self-esteem).

I got a bit obsessed by the topic and wrote a paper on it which can be downloaded here: https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz

And was discussed on HN here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19143590

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#177
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had depression for 20+ years and the best way I would describe it is like this: Think of that little "kick" you get when you think of something you want to do. Maybe you like eating ice cream, maybe you like playing tennis, whatever it is... that feeling, that subconscious little mental boost that gets you up off your ass, and moving... is completely absent in the depressed mind. That spark that initiates and su…

Does that apply to things you 'have' to do as well? I don't really like shopping for groceries, but I'd rather do that, than order take out that's expensive and probably not very healthy. If I'm going to cook something, I'd rather cook something with a different taste than eat pasta again. I don't really want to do laundry, but I do want to have clean clothes that don't smell. If I could afford to do so I wouldn't wo…

I used to feel the same. What I found was that thinking of chores as a "duty" made it into a something I wanted to avoid. Instead, making these into a fun "mission" turned it into a positive thing I look forward to. Something about adding a good sound track, makes all the difference.

Some examples - Going groceries. Used to hate it. Stressful. Too many people, I'd get social anxiety. Now, I smoke some weed, put on Michael Jackson on my headphones, cruise through the store with a smile on my face and a dance in my step. They say Mediterranean cuisine is one of the healthiest diets. OK. So I bought the best Turkish cookbook (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0714878154/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...), and decided this is my new food bible. "Good luck, me! You're gonna need to figure out Eggplant." I've been eating grape-leaf wrapped rice, humus, pita bread, and that kind of thing all week - have never felt healthier. The recipes are easier than you think, and are good for leftovers, meaning you can food-prep and still eat healthily.

Laundry - You might laugh, but I find that on the days where I imagine I'm going to go on a hot date (LOL one day), or meet an important client, or honestly - when I feel most badass (and comfortable!), those days - cool stuff happens. I make a cool connection, have a good conversation, experience something different... So, doing laundry has been a positive way to ensure that my favorite shirts/outfits remain ready for duty, instead of uselessly in a basket.

Work - I was in a bad work situation a couple years back. Failing in-place, in slow motion. I tried to be honest during a review with ny boss, and listed all the things I felt I needed to work on (honestly, coming clean on what I was failing at). My boss took me aside and told me, "Why not get better at what you're already good at, rather than improving on what you're not". It kinda blew my mind... I honestly took a look at one of those "find your dream career" Ven diagrams. What is the intersection of your Passion, What You're Good at, What People Pay for (https://www.authentic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/pros...). I broke the seal, asked my friends, "Hey. I'm looking to make some career changes, and could use the perspective. You know me. What do you come to me for?" I was surprised what kind of great answers I got. I'm quite self critical, so hearing this type of feedback was very encouraging.

I find t fulfilling to identify the people in my life whom I truly admire, learn about their life goals, and help them achieve them. It's a really great feeling, and leads to getting to know your friends at such a different level.

Family - Lately, I have been calling my grandmother on the phone. She's 95. I asked her, what gets you up in the morning? Without missing a beat, she told me: "Music." She loves Singing, playing piano, dancing. I decided to learn to make music. I'm not going crazy with it, but I bought a MIDI keyboard, plugged it into Garageband, and have been learning chords to songs I like, taking lessons. I'm telling you - it's such a wonderful soul feeling. I've since found out that many of my family members - some I had "written off" - are into so music. We've truly been able to connect in ways that excite us both. One of my cousins, we've gone from a "I see you once a decade" to the the true feeling of "family"- sharing each other's cool songs we've discovered, favorite bands & albums, to even video clips of our playing music attempts, telling stories, etc. If you haven't given it a try before, piano is pretty fun & easy to pick up (Trust me, I never in a million years believed I could play any instrument). Now I can sit down at a piano and kinda play something that at least makes MY ears smile :) Check it out if you haven't. Thanks for listening to my Ted talk...

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#178
post #143
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noticed that both you and the OP mentioned drinking. Just the drinking can cause much of this. Drinking screws up your sleep cycle, which can also cause much of this. Drinking sessions are also time consuming, so you have less time for other things you enjoy anyway. Sure, some things you can do while drinking, but those may not be the things you would prefer to be doing while sober.

I was under impression that an alcohol causes a depression.

Many depressed people use alcohol as medication.

otherwise most of them wouldn’t want to socialise at all.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#179
post #123

Cost (and availability/wait time for nations with public healthcare) are a concern. I know several people who received conventional TMS for 30 minutes a day for six weeks. That cost them, with insurance, about $1500. It was effective for an average of six months. This treatment is an order of magnitude more time spent in the machine, even if over a shorter period. What will it cost? Will it be accessible to those who…

There are cheaper and easier to use brain stimulation treatments for depression than TMS. tDCS, that uses current instead of magnetic fields, might not be exactly as effective as TMS but is much more accessible and can be used at home. It stimulates the same area of the brain as TMS (DLPFC).

Here is a great comparison of noninvasive brain stimulation techniques for depression treatment: https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l1079

A company that offers tDCS as a home treatment for depression can be found here: https://flowneuroscience.com/

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#180
post #53

weird how people can often become depressed due to actual real-world experiences like grief or loneliness, but slap a magnet on em and they can go into remission. Makes you wonder whether they'll go into remission for a while and then slip back into depression if the environmental factors are still there. I guess if it can knock you out of a depression where the trigger is no longer present but the trauma persists, t…

Depression can be acute or chronic but everything about what you think or feel is still just chemistry and chemistry is just physics. It's a bit surprising it can be treated with such a blunt instrument as external magnets but then again we use electroshock with some success.

Yeah I am not against this treatment, but I do think sometimes the mind--body relationship isn't treated very well in modern medicine.

Every mind issue is also a brain issue, and so there is no actually boundary between the "real you" and an ailment --- it's an arbitrary division influenced by social norms.

I am no expert but I understand medical ethics is more trolley problem type stuff than issues like this. Similarly is the fact the many psycological ailments are highly culturally specific but the DSM just sort of assumes American context and doesn't go into this.

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