Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 74 posts

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#51

Post by stjohnswarts »

baybal2 wrote: post #18
throwawayHK wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big loophole is the provision for China's intervention in matters of "National Security". This is exactly what has been used to craft very vague language that basically allows authorities to treat anything that goes counter to China's official line as a "threat to National Security". It's so vague that self-censorship is now omnipresent in what was, just a few years ago, a bastion of freedom of speech in Asia. Ne…

UK has all means to successfully use force, and secure its gains - that's the military reality on the ground. It has an amphibious force to land a division, more with requisitioned civilian vessels, and it has thermonuclear weapons to threaten chokepoints — more than enough to get the peninsula. UK is not a small military. With mobilised territorials, and first line conscripts, it will be as much as 10-12 divisions r…

A land invasion by the Britain into China would be suicide in modern times lol. I have no doubt they are brave and talented soldiers and they would do some damage but in the end quantity has a quality all its own. NATO would not follow them into that madness.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#52

Post by Paradigma11 »

champagnois wrote: post #44
jacquesm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure: they made a deal. But now they are breaking some of the terms of that deal. And that's not nice to the people in Hong Kong.

Your intentional aversion to the full context doesn't help anyone understand the situation. When people do not understand any context, they are lead to believe the situation is absurd and is occurring for no reason at all. Full context allows the public to have a sense of things. Here is an honest attempt building a storey via several separate but related facts: (1) In the 1800s, Europe had essentially lost a tradewa…

So you are saying that historical facts and context make china unable to enter binding agreements with western nations?

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#53

Post by champagnois »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #52
champagnois wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your intentional aversion to the full context doesn't help anyone understand the situation. When people do not understand any context, they are lead to believe the situation is absurd and is occurring for no reason at all. Full context allows the public to have a sense of things. Here is an honest attempt building a storey via several separate but related facts: (1) In the 1800s, Europe had essentially lost a tradewa…

So you are saying that historical facts and context make china unable to enter binding agreements with western nations?

I wouldn't say that. I would argue this is a lot more like the WW1 relationship to WW2. The events are related to how the Chinese leadership feels pressure from their public to perform and stand up to adversaries.

In short, China's leadership today has pressure to right historical wrongs. We, as Westerners, should work to understand them so that we can make sense of their behavior as a nation state.

China has two major historical enemies with wrongs that the leadership can stand up to:

(1) The UK for the opium wars (and the 100 year fallout).

(2) Japan for WW2 (and, you know, the whole genocide / killing babies for sport thing).

When the CCP does anything involving these two nations, you can always assume the history and the pressure on the leadership is a factor.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#54

Post by jacquesm »

champagnois wrote: post #53
Paradigma11 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are saying that historical facts and context make china unable to enter binding agreements with western nations?

I wouldn't say that. I would argue this is a lot more like the WW1 relationship to WW2. The events are related to how the Chinese leadership feels pressure from their public to perform and stand up to adversaries. In short, China's leadership today has pressure to right historical wrongs. We, as Westerners, should work to understand them so that we can make sense of their behavior as a nation state. China has two maj…

> The events are related to how the Chinese leadership feels pressure from their public to perform and stand up to adversaries.

The Hong Kong public disagrees with this, and does not see themselves as 'adversaries'.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#55

Post by champagnois »

alimw wrote: post #49
champagnois wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your intentional aversion to the full context doesn't help anyone understand the situation. When people do not understand any context, they are lead to believe the situation is absurd and is occurring for no reason at all. Full context allows the public to have a sense of things. Here is an honest attempt building a storey via several separate but related facts: (1) In the 1800s, Europe had essentially lost a tradewa…

I am not qualified to judge the veracity of points 1 through 5. But I can see they have precisely nothing to do with points 6 and 7.

Except this is about nation state behavior, context, and geopolitics spanning decades rather than some series of small unrelated events.

See my other reply. I am not excusing the behavior of treaty breaking so much as I am saying their leadership has pressure to behave in this way due to the mandate to "right historical wrongs" versus their enemies who killed and attacked them.

I am not the world's leading expert on China, history, or political science -- but I would guess that the fentanyl smuggling operations they are doing are directly related to points (1) through (5) and are some form of revenge in the eyes of their leadership. It probably isn't a coincidence that fentanyl is an opioid, is killing countless Americans, is being laced onto random pills and foods sold, and is all being done by China's intelligence agencies. You know, maybe these events are related!

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#56

Post by champagnois »

jacquesm wrote: post #54
champagnois wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that. I would argue this is a lot more like the WW1 relationship to WW2. The events are related to how the Chinese leadership feels pressure from their public to perform and stand up to adversaries. In short, China's leadership today has pressure to right historical wrongs. We, as Westerners, should work to understand them so that we can make sense of their behavior as a nation state. China has two maj…

> The events are related to how the Chinese leadership feels pressure from their public to perform and stand up to adversaries. The Hong Kong public disagrees with this, and does not see themselves as 'adversaries'.

I know that taking things in context in this way is unpopular among folks who are looking to just sling mud at China. I aim only to provide further context to the intellectually curious who may be wondering how or why.

My posts do not justify or take a side, they merely aim to provide a more expert understanding of the motives and reality.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#57

Post by FpUser »

baybal2 wrote: post #18
throwawayHK wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big loophole is the provision for China's intervention in matters of "National Security". This is exactly what has been used to craft very vague language that basically allows authorities to treat anything that goes counter to China's official line as a "threat to National Security". It's so vague that self-censorship is now omnipresent in what was, just a few years ago, a bastion of freedom of speech in Asia. Ne…

UK has all means to successfully use force, and secure its gains - that's the military reality on the ground. It has an amphibious force to land a division, more with requisitioned civilian vessels, and it has thermonuclear weapons to threaten chokepoints — more than enough to get the peninsula. UK is not a small military. With mobilised territorials, and first line conscripts, it will be as much as 10-12 divisions r…

I am all for it as long as you are in a front line. As far as I remember by your posts you are always itching for action. Do the world a favor. Put your money where your mouth is and sign up for active duty.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#58

Post by FpUser »

Moodles wrote: post #50
jacquesm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the brainwashed types I’ve ever spoken to believe the most insane things despite otherwise being intelligent people. This is a general problem, not limited to China. A good percentage of the world population is ready to believe just about anything, no matter how outrageous. Witness the whole COVID denial movement as one example. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-people-fall-for-con...

Right, but China is a particular severe problem.

Really, did you have chance to compare? When I read user comment section in CBC for example I loose all hope for humanity.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#59

Post by champagnois »

alimw wrote: post #49
champagnois wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your intentional aversion to the full context doesn't help anyone understand the situation. When people do not understand any context, they are lead to believe the situation is absurd and is occurring for no reason at all. Full context allows the public to have a sense of things. Here is an honest attempt building a storey via several separate but related facts: (1) In the 1800s, Europe had essentially lost a tradewa…

I am not qualified to judge the veracity of points 1 through 5. But I can see they have precisely nothing to do with points 6 and 7.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1830-1860/china-1

Regardless of one's feelings towards China, this statement from the US state department, themselves a part of the conflict, more or less describes the events in almost exactly the same way.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#60

Post by jacquesm »

champagnois wrote: post #56
jacquesm wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The events are related to how the Chinese leadership feels pressure from their public to perform and stand up to adversaries. The Hong Kong public disagrees with this, and does not see themselves as 'adversaries'.

I know that taking things in context in this way is unpopular among folks who are looking to just sling mud at China. I aim only to provide further context to the intellectually curious who may be wondering how or why. My posts do not justify or take a side, they merely aim to provide a more expert understanding of the motives and reality.

> My posts do not justify or take a side

They actually do, and consistently so. You are from where I'm sitting consistently arguing China's case without a word of consideration for the people of Hong Kong.

Post reply on HN