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“Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

paulbutler.org

311–320 of 700 posts

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#311

I have gone down the play-to-earn rabbit hole in an unexpected way. In 2017 I started learning about Ethereum. Once I understood it as a virtual machine, the idea hit me that one could build a game. About that time, CryptoKitties hit and became an example of what could be built. Shortly late, a tutorial called CryptoZombies helped teach "a way" to build crypto collectable style games on distributed virtual machines l…

P2E F2P and P2W are more loose buckets than categories with hard and fast distinctions.

I don't think that P2E is inherently bad. Indeed, the history of RMT in games that try to prohibit it (WoW, Eve, etc) shows that P2E is a mechanic that is hard to avoid in certain types of grindy mmo games.

What makes Axies a pyramid scheme is not the incorporation of P2E mechanics directly into the game, but that the game requires players to "buy-in" to the economy to start playing and tries to incentivize that initial purchase by promising later earning capacity.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#312
> Gamers have a word, grinding, to describe repetitive tasks undertaken to gain some desired in-game goal, but are not fun in themselves.

Before gamers used “grinding” it was in normal use for hard work. More commonly used as “on the grind.” Looking up the origin it’s “back to the grind” referring to returning to work from break, but also specific to the ancient job of a grinding grain at a mill.

All things being equal, the thing about “crypto,” as the article labels it, is that playing games or being a early adopter of technology was not historically a paid or rewarded activity.

Maybe web3 is exploiting attention spans the same way as web2, but no matter how web2 spins it, token airdrops to web3 users are often 10’s of thousands of dollars, if not hundreds of thousands, and even millions in some instances.

Where business has historically been about maximizing shareholder value by exploiting labor, web3 is proving to maximize user value by directly rewarding users. In many cases it is life changing money for young, regular folks who would never have had a shot at that type of financial freedom, in fact likely would have gone in to debt trying to pursue their education for a better financial future.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what people don't seem to understand about BitCoin. It is cashflow negative, Money has to keep coming in to keep the price up due to paying miners. It is totally fine if you think BTC is better than the USD or Gold for whatever reason. But Bitcoin is still cashflow negative. You have to keep pumping money into it to keep up its value. Where is that money going to come from? Is it coming from Tether? Is it com…

Bitcoin has a use case for money laundering, tax evasion, evading China's exchange controls, and drugs. That market turned out to be larger than expected.

No post body was provided.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#314
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a lot of people have fond memories of this kind of thing, but from a designer perspective, is it good that a game is so boring that players are willing to pay real-world money to skip parts of it? Runescape set up a system that was so grind-heavy that players broke server rules and wrote automated scripts to grind for them, and other players gave them money to do that. Because the minute-to-minute gameplay of…

> is it good that a game is so boring that players are willing to pay real-world money to skip parts of it? The difference between now and then is that people had to go to third parties; nowadays the game developer themselves will sell you the skip. Or a chance to gamble at a boost. Some of these mechanics are "compelling", in a very visceral sense - they compel people to spend time or money, in a way that isn't quit…

> And yet creating an obsession and a goal and providing a way to grind or spend to that goal is popular.

Now that the veneer of such "games" is dropping away to reveal that they've just been casinos all along, the bright side is that society might finally find the gumption to start taking gaming addiction as seriously as gambling addiction.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#315
Our fiat based economy is play to earn with the government that backs your favorite currency as overseer that can “ban” or penalize you. You’re required to participate to gain access to exchangeable currency. And the platform you’re using (your government and their economy) takes a cut in the form of taxes - and inflation when they’re printing money.

You get to choose to team with others in companies or other organizations, or go it alone which is much tougher.

Like Axie, if you choose to work for someone you’re using their subplatform, like Axie is a subplatform within crypto. And the organization you’re part of has rules and quite a lot of power over your future as long as you’re participating.

In a real world org you can choose to exit and liquidate any equity that you’re allowed to turn into cash. Same with Axie assets that you sell in exchange for something else - maybe a cryptocurrency.

As with Axie, there are many bullshit jobs in the real world that exist for silly reasons and can easily be automated away.

I think these bullshit jobs are bugs in real world economies and virtual economies. Sometimes they’re intentional bugs that benefit the owners or controllers of a platform or economy.

I’d caution one about conflating these anomalies with NFTs or crypto as a whole. Blockchain primitives have the potential to free the proletariat from exploitation by large corporate platforms. Creatives, for example, can own and profit from their art for centuries without an intermediary like Spotify, record companies, film studios or publishers keeping the lions share of the return. It has the potential to disintermediate banks, which is a huge deal, which you’ll know if you’ve ever worked for an investment bank or even walked through any major financial district.

Bullshit jobs abound. But these primitives Axie is playing with are not the cause. They have the potential to free us all.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't intend to, but having done those things now means I am building a Play To Earn game. That is, of course, assuming my game assets and in-game currency actually have value and a value higher than the cost of creation. Other than speculators hoping to flip them to someone else, what would give them that value? Like most crypto games, the value would inherently have to come from new players putting more money…

Paying to skip the grind in a game is a pretty common thing. As a commenter in another thread mentioned, this has been happening since Diablo II at least. If a game has content that is gated by tens or hundreds of hours of grinding some people will happily pay to experience that content immediately. Historically this has been viewed as dubious behavior - especially in MMOs - but it's becoming more normal. EVE Online,…

> It was an interesting system, I don't know what their monetization looks like now.

It works more or less the same, but now with an expanded F2P option that provides access to only early ships / skills (and some other limits). The PLEX is now used to pay for an account to have full access to the game for a month.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#317
post #32

In the late 2000s, as a teenager, I was gifted a Runescape account. This account had level 80+ woodcutting, allowing one to chop magic trees - which would produce the most expensive lumber in the game. It took a staggering number of real hours to achieve this skill level, we're talking several hundred hours minimum. At some point I had realized that there were different sketchy websites that would buy and sell the in…

I know a lot of people have fond memories of this kind of thing, but from a designer perspective, is it good that a game is so boring that players are willing to pay real-world money to skip parts of it? Runescape set up a system that was so grind-heavy that players broke server rules and wrote automated scripts to grind for them, and other players gave them money to do that. Because the minute-to-minute gameplay of…

I agree with you ideologically but challenge this statement:

> [that] gameplay should never have been in the game

How many millions of hours of 'pointless' content are uploaded weekly that people watch? No one is forced to play this game, or to pay for it. Why should it not exist? If game developers create something that people play, is that not a success from their perspective?

This quickly becomes a philosophical conversation. As others mentioned, how much of life is the boring, grind-y parts? How many of us on HN find clever ways to circumvent, augment, automate the grind? Is it immoral to create profitable, addictive systems of human engagement? Does 'good' game design have a quantifiable definition?

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, originally no; stocks paid dividends.

Ethereum also pays dividends in the form of staking rewards. About 7% today, and most likely going to 10%+ post-merge. That makes the yield on Ethereum significantly higher than the majority of stocks in developed markets.

Stocks pay out their dividends in fiat currency, not additional shares.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#319
Who else immediately ordered the book on Amazon? Lol

Bullshit Jobs: A Theory https://www.amazon.com/dp/0141983477

The first review is lit. Quoting:

""" Manifesto for the Professional Class Reviewed in the United States on May 15, 2018 This review was written at the desk of a salaried office job, where I am paid $65,000/yr to do virtually nothing important, so I mostly sit in my chair and listen to podcasts and audiobooks all day. I do this until enough executives and managers above me are gone that I can feel comfortable sneaking out. With my income from this sit, I then outsource all my chores to a slew of below living wage 21st Century gig economy employees--Uber drivers, food delivery, meal kits, laundry.

Having been one of these low paid wage laborers several years ago, it seems like a cruel joke. The higher paying job I find, the less I actually have to work. The higher ranking the position, the less the job is about doing things and contributing to society.

Is this a blessing or immoral sin? Yes. But it turns out, I'm not alone.

This is an entertaining book of anecdotes and statistics on what turns out to be a common phenomena. It is one of the most refreshing reads that a college-educated conscious working professional can have in their library. Put down every other garbage business book that supposedly empowers you. You don't need to practice mindfulness, or rules for life, or launch a lean startup. Breathe in and breathe out, your job is unnecessary and so are most of the other jobs!

Admitting this is the first step of us all solving the collective problem. """

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there a there there without an underlying token that's gone up XX% in the last N months and everyone hopes will still go up XX% in the next N months? Alternatively, even simpler: where is the money coming from ? A bunch of people playing a game are a closed system, and no value is created by playing the game. If the only reason why players are earning money from this game is because more people are continually b…

This is what people don't seem to understand about BitCoin. It is cashflow negative, Money has to keep coming in to keep the price up due to paying miners. It is totally fine if you think BTC is better than the USD or Gold for whatever reason. But Bitcoin is still cashflow negative. You have to keep pumping money into it to keep up its value. Where is that money going to come from? Is it coming from Tether? Is it com…

> Money has to keep coming in to keep the price up due to paying miners

This is incoherent. It's hard to refute this because it's not even on the right page.

Demand for Bitcoin comes from demand for money (to transact, to store wealth, etc.).

It sounds like you're trying to model it using some idea of how equity pricing works - is that accurate?

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