Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Is there a there there without an underlying token that's gone up XX% in the last N months and everyone hopes will still go up XX% in the next N months? Alternatively, even simpler: where is the money coming from ? A bunch of people playing a game are a closed system, and no value is created by playing the game. If the only reason why players are earning money from this game is because more people are continually b…
This is what people don't seem to understand about BitCoin. It is cashflow negative, Money has to keep coming in to keep the price up due to paying miners. It is totally fine if you think BTC is better than the USD or Gold for whatever reason. But Bitcoin is still cashflow negative. You have to keep pumping money into it to keep up its value. Where is that money going to come from? Is it coming from Tether? Is it com…
“Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs
151–160 of 700 posts
Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nitpicks because this game was my childhood. I totally support your sentiment though. > It took a staggering number of real hours to achieve this skill level * 97 logs (30 minutes) * 293 oaks (1 hr) * 714 willows (2.5 hr) * 19,246 maple (very inefficient compared to willow cutting rate - 60 hour). If you did yews it would be many hundreds of hours. About 70 hours done inefficiently. > What if I wrote a macro Macros w…
Delightful, I very nearly stopped my stream of consciousness to check the numbers, I wondered if anyone else would. It seems many of us share nostalgia around RS.
Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs
#153> I was skeptical that any mechanism to create bullshit jobs could arise from a system as inherently Darwinian as capitalism But if we take Darwinian evolution as our analogy, there are plenty of strategies that essentially piggy back on other organisms. Cuckoo birds, intestinal worms, a whole coterie of sexual behaviors. It's also the everyday experience of just about everyone that they perceive certain others to no…
> coterie of sexual behaviors Are you saying we can witness that in people too?
Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs
#154On the flipside, there are tons of regulated games that are both fun and allow users to flex their niche knowledge, like FanDuel (sports), BigBrain (trivia), and so on.
Just because Axie is a poorly designed game doesn't necessarily invalidated the larger point that jobs and income are changing, and gamification of skills is an interesting trend that is likely here to stay.
Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs
#155Is this actually true? The linked article doesn't say anything about it being fun or not. I love grinding and think it's fun in itself.
Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs
#156In the late 2000s, as a teenager, I was gifted a Runescape account. This account had level 80+ woodcutting, allowing one to chop magic trees - which would produce the most expensive lumber in the game. It took a staggering number of real hours to achieve this skill level, we're talking several hundred hours minimum. At some point I had realized that there were different sketchy websites that would buy and sell the in…
Nitpicks because this game was my childhood. I totally support your sentiment though. > It took a staggering number of real hours to achieve this skill level * 97 logs (30 minutes) * 293 oaks (1 hr) * 714 willows (2.5 hr) * 19,246 maple (very inefficient compared to willow cutting rate - 60 hour). If you did yews it would be many hundreds of hours. About 70 hours done inefficiently. > What if I wrote a macro Macros w…
There’s a weird, secret history around Runescape botting that I really hope gets told in full one day.
Essentially, the biggest and best botting client from the 2008-2011 era was Powerbot, later rebranded RSBot. It was written and managed mostly by some CS student from the UK, who went by the handle Jacmob, and used some bytecode editing + reflection to bind game objects directly, meaning that it allowed full interactivity with the underlying game, rather than just a simple image recognition and mouse control framework.
During this era, Jagex (makers of Runescape) made some big efforts to combat the botting. They started using obfuscators to make reverse engineering the bytecode harder, and reworked the handling of all String objects internally to mask them. There were more efforts, of varying success, but without fail, this one guy would have the botting client (and by extension, the whole botting ecosystem) back online in a week or so.
Flash forward to 2011, and Jacmob starts teasing something big for his RSBot 4.0 release: a “web-walking” API that would allow script writers to input any two positions on the world map, and have the botting client find them a path there, navigating through buildings, portals, teleports along the way. This was going to be an absolute game changer - script writing required insane attention to detail, trial and error, and tedium to navigate the world map in a slightly-randomized/hard-to-detect way. And yet a week or so before the big release… boom, another big effort comes from Jagex to stop the injection clients: the Great Bot Nuke of 2011.
This was different from the prior attempts by Jagex. Radio silence from Jacmob and the RSBot team, which was weird given the pending release. As the dust settled over the following weeks, it comes out that Jacmob, King of the botting community, has become Mod Jacmob, employee of Jagex, with very little fanfare both then and ever since. RSBot 4.0 was not to be.
Jacmob left the company several years later, but led their efforts through 2014 to combat botting, with great success. There’s very little information publicly available, but I strongly suspect he was using the obvious strategies of looking at probability distributions for click positioning on game objects and delays between certain behaviors to spot automation.
Jagex’s operations have grown much sloppier after his departure, but the scene has never returned to its former glory pre-2011. One nerdy, talented, quiet figure was responsible for so much of the Runescape community’s development - and yet you’d never know it without having been there yourself. Quite a world we live in.
(@Jacmob, if happen to read this - can I interview you pls Edit: this is all from memory, I’m probably bungling the details in quite a few places.
Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that we end up spending a vast amount of human effort doing work that fundamentally doesn't need to be done. There's no actual economic output to paying people to break rocks.
But there's an economic drain if you fire all the rock breakers, and they end up on the streets. With automation coming for most jobs, we can either live in a low to no work Utopia or a hypercapitalist hell. Given recent trends, my money is on hypercapitalist hell.
Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that we end up spending a vast amount of human effort doing work that fundamentally doesn't need to be done. There's no actual economic output to paying people to break rocks.
Exactly. One could make an argument that the work some users put in, once sold, result in value to the buyer, but that value isn’t generated by the worker. The developers created the scheme and could deliver the value directly at no cost to all players, poor and wealthy, but instead chose to create meaningless work by making grinding opportunities.
Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs
#159According to Graeber, a job is bullshit when the one who does it thinks that the job is bullshit. By this definition, chores, menial tasks don’t count as bullshit. I don’t see any quote from players who call what they are doing bullshit.
I think it was termed more like “it is a bullshit job if the world would run just as well (or even better) if the job didn’t exist”.
Still relies on self-assessment but isn’t quite what you said. More based on some idea of “usefulness”. Play to earn doesn’t seem very useful.
Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs
#160Slightly OT, but for the historical record: > People have made money by selling virtual goods acquired in-game at least as far back as Second Life in 2005. I saw it happening at least as far back as ‘98 in DragonRealms, a MUD and (when it moved off of AOL) one of the first online games with a monthly subscription.