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Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

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Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#171

Post by piyh »

Nextgrid wrote: post #136
mrtksn wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SIM cards are famously the weak link in the 2FA. They have all kind of security issues as they are computers themselves. The way forward is to get rid of the SIM and access those carrier networks through credentials, ideally I would love to see it as a cryptographic receipt that you get from your payment provider and pass it to the the carrier as a proof of right for account and usage of their networks.

SMS-based 2FA's weakness is not due to SIM cards. It's due to carriers being shit. SMS-based 2FA is not exploited by breaking any cryptography or exploiting some software vulnerability. It's by "asking nicely" the carrier's customer support idiots to associate a new SIM to the target account & number. Replacing the SIM with username/password wouldn't do anything - instead of the attackers having to associate a new ph…

Do you remember the Syniverse breach?

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#172

Post by jacob019 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #129
jwr wrote: post #66

I am very worried about this. While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point, as pretty much nobody uses a phone as "just a phone", you need to have an account wi…

> Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point I’m far more worried about the SIM cards than Apple or Google. Did you know that SIM cards run Java? Or that they can send text messages from your phone directly to the baseband without going through the phone itself? Your SIM is probably sending data to your carrier without you knowing. ( https://scribe.rip/telecom-expert/what-is-at…

Sure, but the sim doesn't have access to the main CPU, main memory, storage, or sensors (without help from an app which can just as easily leak data without help from the sim) I fail to see how it compromises security any more than an eSIM.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#173

Post by CubsFan1060 »

PebblesHD wrote: post #158

I (before COVID…) travel somewhat regularly and have a collection of SIM cards from my most frequently travelled destinations making just arriving and going about my life a nice straightforward process. I haven’t seen anything to indicate eSIMs have anything close to this experience and I feel like losing the option to do so for some perceived modernness is a bit disappointing.

I'm not sure about all your use cases, but I had great success with Airalo when traveling. It was data only, but my normal Verizon number was routed through that data connection. The biggest negative was not really being able to make local calls. There's a few other companies that do the same thing (GigSky and a few others that I can't remember).

It was my first time traveling internationally that I felt like it was a great solution.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#174

Post by dkjaudyeqooe »

jdavis703 wrote: post #103
jwr wrote: post #66

I am very worried about this. While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point, as pretty much nobody uses a phone as "just a phone", you need to have an account wi…

There’s still IMEI locks. A lot of prepaid carriers in Europe won’t or can’t sell you a SIM card for a US phone (one man claimed it was due to carriers trying to reduce phone theft). Note, my phone was fully paid for, and therefor unlocked.

I've never encountered this, which country are you talking about?

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#175

Post by hungryforcodes »

arthur_sav wrote: post #140
jwr wrote: post #66

I am very worried about this. While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point, as pretty much nobody uses a phone as "just a phone", you need to have an account wi…

Realistically when was the last time you switched your SIM card? I only change it when i change phones.

I live in SE Asia and I do this all the time. Pretty much several times a year when I move around. So does everyone else I know here.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#176

Post by Nextgrid »

piyh wrote: post #171
Nextgrid wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SMS-based 2FA's weakness is not due to SIM cards. It's due to carriers being shit. SMS-based 2FA is not exploited by breaking any cryptography or exploiting some software vulnerability. It's by "asking nicely" the carrier's customer support idiots to associate a new SIM to the target account & number. Replacing the SIM with username/password wouldn't do anything - instead of the attackers having to associate a new ph…

Do you remember the Syniverse breach?

Yes - carriers managed to find a company even more incompetent than themselves and outsourced sensitive data to them. It doesn't make SIMs insecure. No amount of authentication will help if the party you're authenticating to then decides to send your data to a compromised third-party.

By the way, CDR processing (aka parsing CSV files and figuring out how much to charge - rocket science I know) is also routinely outsourced to the lowest bidders with no doubt terrible security practices: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/5g-elephant-in-the-room/

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#177

Post by fy20 »

PebblesHD wrote: post #158

I (before COVID…) travel somewhat regularly and have a collection of SIM cards from my most frequently travelled destinations making just arriving and going about my life a nice straightforward process. I haven’t seen anything to indicate eSIMs have anything close to this experience and I feel like losing the option to do so for some perceived modernness is a bit disappointing.

In my country there's only one provider that supports eSIMs and the plans are much more limited. There are no prepay eSIM plans for example.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#178

Post by scoopertrooper »

PebblesHD wrote: post #158

I (before COVID…) travel somewhat regularly and have a collection of SIM cards from my most frequently travelled destinations making just arriving and going about my life a nice straightforward process. I haven’t seen anything to indicate eSIMs have anything close to this experience and I feel like losing the option to do so for some perceived modernness is a bit disappointing.

So your argument against eSIMs is that it'd interfere with your niche hobby of international sim card collecting?

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#179

Post by gime_tree_fiddy »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #129
jwr wrote: post #66

I am very worried about this. While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point, as pretty much nobody uses a phone as "just a phone", you need to have an account wi…

> Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point I’m far more worried about the SIM cards than Apple or Google. Did you know that SIM cards run Java? Or that they can send text messages from your phone directly to the baseband without going through the phone itself? Your SIM is probably sending data to your carrier without you knowing. ( https://scribe.rip/telecom-expert/what-is-at…

The full portability won't be the same across multiple regions, especially internationally. Also, there is a good chance it gets tied to the device/contract you are on, similar to how the phone contracts in the US were a few years ago.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#180

Post by Nextgrid »

headmelted wrote: post #164
jwr wrote: post #66

I am very worried about this. While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point, as pretty much nobody uses a phone as "just a phone", you need to have an account wi…

I'm actually more worried about a different problem - I don't care about removing the physical SIM slot but I'm really concerned about halving the amount of numbers someone can have on a single device. Phone numbers are an utterly terrible system. Having to give a single number out to everyone is a stupid beyond belief design that we just tolerate year after year. That SIM-based 2FA exists makes this even worse. Appl…

Multiple numbers is already technically possible and does not require eSIM. It does require the carrier to innovate and actually do some engineering though, and there's no market pressure for them to do so.
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