What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software • Hacker News Board

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#41

Post by patio11 » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 5:18 PM UTC

Don’t mention this in the software industry especially startups, the situation is almost the complete opposite with demand for qualified engineers more than twice the supply.

At the price startups are willing to pay, naturally. I imagine demand exceeds supply for doctors willing to work for $30k + equity + copious free beer, too.

I know a lot of people feel that $80k or $120k for developers is quite generous. It may well be generous, but if you can't hire someone for it, it is by definition below market. You know all those articles we've read about structural change? Here's another structural change: the market clearing price for engineers may soon durably transition to that of e.g. management consultants or lawyers rather than that of e.g. HR clerks or marketing directors.

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#42

Post by pnathan » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 5:19 PM UTC

vondur wrote: post #19

I'm sure if the economy continues its downward spiral, these software jobs will evaporate just like many of the others.

Depends on the industry it services. I expect the Angry Birds/Farmville -style software shops to collapse at some point.

However, shops that turn out embedded system components & other infrastructural support will keep chugging along.

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#43

Post by nuromancer » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 5:20 PM UTC

shoota wrote: post #28

kabdib wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree on "tough math". Strongly disagree. Be analytical, practical and tenacious. Know how to abstract, design, program. Know tools, know platforms. Know how to triage and actually ship stuff. Be good to work with. Keep learning, constantly. Read tons of code. But "tough math"? Honestly, haven't needed anything more than simple statistics for most problems. "Tough math" seems more like an ego thing. I'd watch out…

You're correct for general problem solving in computer science. However, in order to get a degree from most universities you have to have taken 3 courses in calculus, a course in linear algebra and a course in differential equations. To most people those courses are "tough math".

If you are seeking a masters in CS most universities are only looking for programming languages, computer architecture, data structures and one algorithms course. These are the prerequisites for most courses.

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#44

Post by pavel_lishin » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 5:31 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #39

pavel_lishin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that math is universally necessary - it's actually rare that I need to sit down and write equations and think about something mathematically. (Unless I'm a genius who does it in his head, and trust me, I'm not.) And a 25-hour-a-week job doesn't seem that overwhelming. I think I worked 20 hours a week with a 30 minute commute each way - unless you're having a truly difficult time with the core concepts,…

I knew very smart guy who worked over 30 hours a week on compilers alone. He got an A-. Maybe he could have gotten away with less work. This was a notoriously difficult prof at a notoriously tough program, though. So maybe not typical.

I suppose it depends on the specifics of your program. BS in CS over here, never had to take a compiler class as far as I remember.

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#45

Post by rmc » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 5:47 PM UTC

ootachi wrote: post #9

pavel_lishin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we're talking about people who have never programmed before; we're talking about maybe COBOL and Fortran experts, or people who write low-level C but can only find Python and Ruby jobs.

Are we really at the point where engineers can't find jobs because they only know C++ instead of Python and Ruby web stacks? This is a bit concerning, if so.

No, there is still a lot of C & C++ jobs out there. However COBOL might be another matter...

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#46

Post by maxxxxx » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 5:48 PM UTC

cperciva wrote: post #30

maxxxxx wrote: post #10

In Germany there is the word "Schweinezyklus". Pig cycle. It's mostly prevalent in engineering. It works like this: 1. Companies complain about not having enough qualified engineers 2. Everybody gets told to get into engineering in college 3. Boom crashes. Companies lay off engineers. The new engineering graduates don't get hired and are unemployed 4. Everybody flees engineering 5. Back to step 1. I think we are at t…

I don't think this quite captures the situation. Companies aren't complaining about a lack of credentialed developers; they're complaining about a lack of competent developers. In 2000 there were far more people graduating with computing degrees than in 1995; but the average quality was far far lower. The people who suddenly found that they couldn't get jobs when the dot-com bubble burst? Most of them didn't belong i…

I knew plenty of people who were top-notch developers who didn't find jobs back then.

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#47

Post by maxxxxx » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 5:51 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #31

maxxxxx wrote: post #10

In Germany there is the word "Schweinezyklus". Pig cycle. It's mostly prevalent in engineering. It works like this: 1. Companies complain about not having enough qualified engineers 2. Everybody gets told to get into engineering in college 3. Boom crashes. Companies lay off engineers. The new engineering graduates don't get hired and are unemployed 4. Everybody flees engineering 5. Back to step 1. I think we are at t…

Anything with delayed results will have cycles. You express cynicism, but there's no great evil behind it. Predicting the number and type of people that should study engineering today for work ten years from now is no easy task. It will always be a little bit wrong. And at least you end up with educated people and the fruits of engineering work. The alternative is giving up: "I might as well not learn anything very u…

I don't think this cycle is evil. I just want people to be careful when they read stuff like this in the article:

"Are you in college and bothered about the job market ahead of your graduation, should you consider switching majors? maybe. The industry is booming and doesn’t look like it will be slowing down anytime soon. In the middle of all the unemployment, maybe we can take solace in the never ending demand for Engineers."

After a boom there is always a bust. And the bigger the boom, the bigger the bust.

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#48

Post by Locke1689 » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 5:57 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #41

Don’t mention this in the software industry especially startups, the situation is almost the complete opposite with demand for qualified engineers more than twice the supply. At the price startups are willing to pay, naturally. I imagine demand exceeds supply for doctors willing to work for $30k + equity + copious free beer, too. I know a lot of people feel that $80k or $120k for developers is quite generous. It may…

I hope so, but the problem I see is that new grads (I include myself here) are willing to work for 80k, while it's not that much of a stretch to say that the best graduates will be almost as productive in a few years as they will be in 7 or 8 years. That doesn't, however, automatically mean a commensurate salary increase, so developer salaries are kept perpetually lower than they should be. How can employers and employees adapt to this bifurcated market?

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#49

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 6:03 PM UTC

Helianthus wrote: post #37

watty wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't considered "tough math" though. Surely basic math is needed but most developers won't actually use high level math (except to get the degree).

There's an argument to be made that learning tough math is necessary to make basic math effortless.

[deleted]

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#50

Post by rdouble » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 6:06 PM UTC

Helianthus wrote: post #37

watty wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't considered "tough math" though. Surely basic math is needed but most developers won't actually use high level math (except to get the degree).

There's an argument to be made that learning tough math is necessary to make basic math effortless.

That wouldn't be a very good argument. Basic math gets better by doing a lot of basic math. Your trigonometry will not improve by learning topology. I had more than one math prof who could not seem to balance a checkbook.