What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software • Hacker News Board

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#21

Post by onemoreact » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 4:20 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #14

geebee wrote: post #8

To become a software developer (especially the kind with a CS related degree), you need: -A highly analytical mindset -The ability to handle tough math -The ability to read dense material and process it quickly -The mindset to persevere, test, investigate, and find obscure problems in complex systems -The ability to see a project through to its finish -The ability to explain complex logic and design, verbally and in…

I don't think that math is universally necessary - it's actually rare that I need to sit down and write equations and think about something mathematically. (Unless I'm a genius who does it in his head, and trust me, I'm not.) And a 25-hour-a-week job doesn't seem that overwhelming. I think I worked 20 hours a week with a 30 minute commute each way - unless you're having a truly difficult time with the core concepts,…

Mathematical literacy is more than just writing down complex equations.

for (a = 0; a How many times is do_something called? If you can say n^2 in under 15 seconds you are now better at math than the average American.

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#22

Post by rdouble » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 4:21 PM UTC

It's pretty region and skill specific.

If you live somewhere outside of about 4 or 5 locations in the USA, getting a programming job can be hard. Also, skills that are hot in a place like NYC or Silicon Valley are often next to useless in other areas. (learning this the hard way)

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#23

Post by kabdib » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 4:24 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #8

To become a software developer (especially the kind with a CS related degree), you need: -A highly analytical mindset -The ability to handle tough math -The ability to read dense material and process it quickly -The mindset to persevere, test, investigate, and find obscure problems in complex systems -The ability to see a project through to its finish -The ability to explain complex logic and design, verbally and in…

Disagree on "tough math". Strongly disagree.

Be analytical, practical and tenacious. Know how to abstract, design, program. Know tools, know platforms. Know how to triage and actually ship stuff. Be good to work with. Keep learning, constantly. Read tons of code.

But "tough math"? Honestly, haven't needed anything more than simple statistics for most problems.

"Tough math" seems more like an ego thing. I'd watch out for that.

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#24

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 4:28 PM UTC

bartonfink wrote: post #18

ootachi wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we really at the point where engineers can't find jobs because they only know C++ instead of Python and Ruby web stacks? This is a bit concerning, if so.

It happens. I used to work with a guy whose expertise was Java GUI development and who knew NOTHING about web stacks at all. He's been looking for work, and kept getting told that it was a big problem that he didn't know anything about web development. Someone even told him in an interview that he was getting dangerously close to the "point of no return" where his skills were so stale that he'd be unemployable anywhe…

[deleted]

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#25

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 4:28 PM UTC

kabdib wrote: post #23

geebee wrote: post #8

To become a software developer (especially the kind with a CS related degree), you need: -A highly analytical mindset -The ability to handle tough math -The ability to read dense material and process it quickly -The mindset to persevere, test, investigate, and find obscure problems in complex systems -The ability to see a project through to its finish -The ability to explain complex logic and design, verbally and in…

Disagree on "tough math". Strongly disagree. Be analytical, practical and tenacious. Know how to abstract, design, program. Know tools, know platforms. Know how to triage and actually ship stuff. Be good to work with. Keep learning, constantly. Read tons of code. But "tough math"? Honestly, haven't needed anything more than simple statistics for most problems. "Tough math" seems more like an ego thing. I'd watch out…

[deleted]

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#26

Post by namdnay » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 4:29 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #10

In Germany there is the word "Schweinezyklus". Pig cycle. It's mostly prevalent in engineering. It works like this: 1. Companies complain about not having enough qualified engineers 2. Everybody gets told to get into engineering in college 3. Boom crashes. Companies lay off engineers. The new engineering graduates don't get hired and are unemployed 4. Everybody flees engineering 5. Back to step 1. I think we are at t…

I'd go further and say this is a big problem for any supply-demand system where there is significant latency. Farming, Degrees etc. Wave effects seem inevitable in this case

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#27

Post by watty » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 4:29 PM UTC

onemoreact wrote: post #21

pavel_lishin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that math is universally necessary - it's actually rare that I need to sit down and write equations and think about something mathematically. (Unless I'm a genius who does it in his head, and trust me, I'm not.) And a 25-hour-a-week job doesn't seem that overwhelming. I think I worked 20 hours a week with a 30 minute commute each way - unless you're having a truly difficult time with the core concepts,…

Mathematical literacy is more than just writing down complex equations. for (a = 0; a How many times is do_something called? If you can say n^2 in under 15 seconds you are now better at math than the average American.

That isn't considered "tough math" though. Surely basic math is needed but most developers won't actually use high level math (except to get the degree).

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#28

Post by shoota » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 4:29 PM UTC

kabdib wrote: post #23

geebee wrote: post #8

To become a software developer (especially the kind with a CS related degree), you need: -A highly analytical mindset -The ability to handle tough math -The ability to read dense material and process it quickly -The mindset to persevere, test, investigate, and find obscure problems in complex systems -The ability to see a project through to its finish -The ability to explain complex logic and design, verbally and in…

Disagree on "tough math". Strongly disagree. Be analytical, practical and tenacious. Know how to abstract, design, program. Know tools, know platforms. Know how to triage and actually ship stuff. Be good to work with. Keep learning, constantly. Read tons of code. But "tough math"? Honestly, haven't needed anything more than simple statistics for most problems. "Tough math" seems more like an ego thing. I'd watch out…

You're correct for general problem solving in computer science. However, in order to get a degree from most universities you have to have taken 3 courses in calculus, a course in linear algebra and a course in differential equations. To most people those courses are "tough math".

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#29

Post by pagekalisedown » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 4:41 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #7

hacknut13 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's their point. When you have people with no jobs, that counts for the unemployment. But even I know how difficult it is to find people to hire for our company as I do HR for a technology firm. There is a high demand, just shortage of people to fill the positions.

I see an increasing unwillingness of companies to train people who don't have EXACTLY the right skillset. This used be different in the 90s.

I agree. I think the logic is: "if we train them, they'll go find better paying jobs, and besides, as soon as this project is done, everyone will be laid off anyway." So everyone only wants to hire exact fit.

Re: What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software

#30

Post by cperciva » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 4:48 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #10

In Germany there is the word "Schweinezyklus". Pig cycle. It's mostly prevalent in engineering. It works like this: 1. Companies complain about not having enough qualified engineers 2. Everybody gets told to get into engineering in college 3. Boom crashes. Companies lay off engineers. The new engineering graduates don't get hired and are unemployed 4. Everybody flees engineering 5. Back to step 1. I think we are at t…

I don't think this quite captures the situation. Companies aren't complaining about a lack of credentialed developers; they're complaining about a lack of competent developers.

In 2000 there were far more people graduating with computing degrees than in 1995; but the average quality was far far lower. The people who suddenly found that they couldn't get jobs when the dot-com bubble burst? Most of them didn't belong in the industry in the first place.