Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

bnnbloomberg.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 467 posts

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#261

Post by jhgb »

midjji wrote: post #254
jhgb wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Germany would have problems if not for French nuclear You could say that pretty much about any country in the European synchronous grid. Everyone needs everyone else. > and a great many, rather expensive, gas power plants The gas plants are actually quite cheap. It's the gas that's expensive. > Its also worth nothing that the rising power prices have largely prevented germany from moving away from using gas to for…

No not quite, burning fuel for heat locally will always be at least twice as effective as ideal conversion to power, followed by ideal conversion to heat, in practice its closer to three times. Therefore power prices need to fall substantially gas prices before the switch is worth it. That will never happen while producing power from gas or more expensive alternatives. In particular since the gas distribution infrast…

> No not quite, burning fuel for heat locally will always be at least twice as effective as ideal conversion to power

Except NOT having to heat is even more effective than burning fuel for heating locally. So the move away from gas heating to low-energy buildings is definitely stimulated by higher gas prices.

> Same thing for france.

I doubt that, since France seem to be actually using their interconnects. Can't comment on Sweden, though.

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#262

Post by wumpus »

midjji wrote: post #254
jhgb wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Germany would have problems if not for French nuclear You could say that pretty much about any country in the European synchronous grid. Everyone needs everyone else. > and a great many, rather expensive, gas power plants The gas plants are actually quite cheap. It's the gas that's expensive. > Its also worth nothing that the rising power prices have largely prevented germany from moving away from using gas to for…

No not quite, burning fuel for heat locally will always be at least twice as effective as ideal conversion to power, followed by ideal conversion to heat, in practice its closer to three times. Therefore power prices need to fall substantially gas prices before the switch is worth it. That will never happen while producing power from gas or more expensive alternatives. In particular since the gas distribution infrast…

Does your number include electric heat pumps? Germany is warm enough for very modern heat pumps to do well.

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#263

Post by R0b0t1 »

cure wrote: post #55
avsteele wrote: post #26

Please correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that nuclear doesn't ramp up/down very well either. Most nuclear plants use fission for the base load but gas or other fossil fuel generators for the variable part. Since in Germany green power in the form of solar/wind are even more variable, this makes Nuclear + Solar/Wind a bad combo. Wind and solar don't even make sense for Germany given their climate/geograp…

> Please correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that nuclear doesn't ramp up/down very well either. Correct. Nuclear reactors can't be turned on/off quickly. They are suitable to handle the base load, in other words, but can't be used as peakers. > Wind and solar don't even make sense for Germany given their climate/geography. Uhm, respectfully, that is a load of nonsense. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R…

This is wrong. Nuclear reaction output can be modulated on the order of milliseconds, practically visible as the temperature of the core, which varies on seconds to minutes. They can be used as peaker plants if so designed. In the US at least, the issue is that energy output must be telegraphed 4+ hours in advance.

If I had to guess this is a constructed incentive to make nuclear less desirable than coal or gas under the guise of safety.

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#264

Post by R0b0t1 »

avsteele wrote: post #26

Please correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that nuclear doesn't ramp up/down very well either. Most nuclear plants use fission for the base load but gas or other fossil fuel generators for the variable part. Since in Germany green power in the form of solar/wind are even more variable, this makes Nuclear + Solar/Wind a bad combo. Wind and solar don't even make sense for Germany given their climate/geograp…

Nuclear reaction output can be modulated on the order of milliseconds, practically visible as the temperature of the core, which varies on seconds to minutes. They can be used as peaker plants if so designed. In the US at least, the issue is that energy output must be telegraphed 4+ hours in advance.

If I had to guess this is a constructed incentive to make nuclear less desirable than coal or gas under the guise of safety.

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#265

Post by wumpus »

midjji wrote: post #218
com2kid wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And you can't either decide when people turn on their washing machine. Not completely, but you can make electricity almost free at certain times of day to encourage shifting usage. Although there is a natural limit to this, since people have to be home to do laundry! (Also electric driers are the real culprit, they use an obscene amount of electricity! I am not sure if Germany is big on electric dryers or not thoug…

Power is far to abstract and far to cheap for people to make even the slightest adjustment to their habits. After all, lets say you knew that making your morning coffe between 07-08 cost 10 cents more than doing so an hour earlier or later, would you get up earlier, or go to work latter? And in 1 cent is more realistic.

One good example is electric car charging... all the EV owner has to do is opt in, and an algorithm can do the rest.

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#266

Post by Haemm0r »

AstralStorm wrote: post #158
jhgb wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has the same electricity mix as Germany and it has extremely good SAIDI index compared to all other countries ( https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-electric... ). I guess those Germans are just insanely competent, then.

Check precision energy import charts, especially at night in winter. Germany uses other countries as a battery.

Can confirm this as an Austrian ;-)

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#268

Post by LunaSea »

uniqueuid wrote: post #34
avsteele wrote: post #26

Please correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that nuclear doesn't ramp up/down very well either. Most nuclear plants use fission for the base load but gas or other fossil fuel generators for the variable part. Since in Germany green power in the form of solar/wind are even more variable, this makes Nuclear + Solar/Wind a bad combo. Wind and solar don't even make sense for Germany given their climate/geograp…

52% of Germany's energy production in 2021 was from renewables [1], which are productive now, don't need decades of planning and construction, have zero costs for waste and a perfectly clear risk profile for the next centuries. I don't see how wind and solar don't make sense. [1] https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2021/09/PE21_429_43312.html

> don't need decades of planning and construction

Well they aren't produced in Germany so if CoVid continues, good luck getting those solar panels.

> have zero costs for waste

Used up windmill blades are buried into the ground and we still have to find a good way to recycle batteries.

> perfectly clear risk profile

Like fucking over the neighbouring countries by using them as batteries or using Russian gas?

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#269

Post by AnthonyMouse »

formerly_proven wrote: post #250
leobg wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. All electric heating should be replaced by GPUs. If you need to heat up a room with electricity, at least do some proof of work along the way.

GPUs are just resistive heating with extra steps, COP 1. Heat pumps can do way better most of the time.

Hardware for mining cryptocurrency is self-financing in a relatively short period of time when the electricity is "free" since you're using it for heat anyway.

Heat pumps require a significant capital investment which would have to be recovered on only their efficiency improvement, since they don't otherwise generate revenue.

The math is different for new construction. There heat pumps make a lot more sense because the capital cost is relative to some other heating system you don't already have. Then the higher efficiency will generally cover the relative capital cost even if it wouldn't cover the total capital cost. This might still be less profitable than mining cryptocurrency (depending on a variety of factors) but better than any other traditional heating system.

Post reply on HN