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Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

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Re: Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

#51

Post by jonnycomputer »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #42
gambiting wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Pole, it frustrates me to no end as the 90s and 2000s were the time of incredible optimism and opportunity, then the country joined the EU in 2004 you could see *everything" improving very very quickly, huge level of growth and opportunities for everyone, country slowly becoming more and more progressive too, and then PiS got elected and everything went to shit, 6 years down and I don't recognize this country or…

> then PiS got elected and everything went to shit, 6 years down and I don't recognize this country or its values anymore Is there concern this could impact Poland's NATO status in the long run? In the short run, of course not, it's strategically located. But in the long run, as values diverge, isn't there fear it could become untenable for a U.S. president to call for spilling American blood to protect such a countr…

I think PiS is endangering itself. Exit from EU would be catastrophic strategically. Despite its anti-Russian rhetoric, sometimes I wonder whether the leadership of PiS is actually being paid by Putin to weaken Poland and the EU.

Re: Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

#52

Post by [deleted] »

passerby1 wrote: post #41
jacquesm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed it is super frustrating. I still have a ton of ties with Poland and the level of disillusion among my contacts there is absolutely overwhelming. Brexit has caused a lot of Polish people that had set up shop abroad between a rock and a hard place: some of them were planning to move back but those plans are now on hold forever. And the ones remaining in Poland that were trying their hardest to move the country f…

I don't get what connection does the Brexit have to Poland, would you explain?

[deleted]

Re: Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

#53

Post by ajuc »

tryauuum wrote: post #45
trasz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, look at it this way: how bad it must have been for those people to prefer the 500zł instead? I'd say that's what the previous government missed completely: that the old state of affairs simply didn't work for many people.

Can you explain from someone not from Poland, what does 500zł mean? Is it some sort of minimal wage?

Current government introduced 500 PLN a month (about 25% of median net salary) for each kid younger than 18. It was promoted as a solution for demographic problems, but it barely helped, what it did instead is persuade people who don't care about politics to vote PIS. That and reversing the unpopular (but necessary) retirement reforms of previous government made PIS very popular and they used that popularity to unconstitutionally dismantle checks and balances and to take over every independent institution there is.

Basically they did the same as every wannabe authorithatian ever - pay people to love you and take over the country while they still do.

Re: Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

#54

Post by tata71 »

Claude_Shannon wrote: post #13
gambiting wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Pole, it frustrates me to no end as the 90s and 2000s were the time of incredible optimism and opportunity, then the country joined the EU in 2004 you could see *everything" improving very very quickly, huge level of growth and opportunities for everyone, country slowly becoming more and more progressive too, and then PiS got elected and everything went to shit, 6 years down and I don't recognize this country or…

I have no hope anymore. It won't get better. If people want 500 zł monthly and are willing to sell themselves and the country for that - let them...

What happens when the whole western world is on that?

Re: Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

#55

Post by praptak »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #42
gambiting wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Pole, it frustrates me to no end as the 90s and 2000s were the time of incredible optimism and opportunity, then the country joined the EU in 2004 you could see *everything" improving very very quickly, huge level of growth and opportunities for everyone, country slowly becoming more and more progressive too, and then PiS got elected and everything went to shit, 6 years down and I don't recognize this country or…

> then PiS got elected and everything went to shit, 6 years down and I don't recognize this country or its values anymore Is there concern this could impact Poland's NATO status in the long run? In the short run, of course not, it's strategically located. But in the long run, as values diverge, isn't there fear it could become untenable for a U.S. president to call for spilling American blood to protect such a countr…

Of course it might affect Poland's NATO status. I mean not like the formal membership. Turkey is still in NATO after all.

But relying on membership alone is plain stupid. If "spilling blood to protect such a country" becomes a problem, the response will degrade from actual help to some meaningless gestures. "We tried really hard to help them! Too bad our troops did not make it on time!"

Re: Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

#56

Post by p_l »

bitcharmer wrote: post #31
trasz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. In fact, those programs are only barely more expensive than "podatek liniowy", which got introduced decades ago and which is essentially a subsidy for the wealthy for being wealthy.

Care to explain the reason behind currently skyrocketing inflation and PLN devaluation then?

The 500 PLN extra for kids by itself was not necessarily going to cause skyrocketing inflation. I don't necessarily agree with how it was implemented, but it's true that we had a huge lack of important support for less wealthy.

However, on top of that, you have a lot of simply bad management, and also ridiculous amounts of fraud by ruling party politicians. This means that a lot of money is leaking from the budget in various ways into pockets of people associated with current government, and another (possibly bigger) chunk of money is lost by mismanagement - including things as simple as replacing experienced people with nepotism-pushed ones who then fail to process documents for EU funds.

This year we ended up with huge fines (increasing daily), with direct cause being continued operation of Turów surface mine. What is often missed in discussion is that Czech Republic didn't want it closed or fined - they requested that in exchange for continued operation, Poland funds waterworks necessary to ensure nearby villages & towns on Czech side of border have access to potable water, as the mine caused considerable lowering of water table.

So rampant spending on often idiotic things, which also heavily goes into pockets of party nomenclature (so it doesn't even have the benefit of being "make work") results in considerable lack of funds in the budget...

Re: Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

#57

Post by tryauuum »

ajuc wrote: post #53
tryauuum wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain from someone not from Poland, what does 500zł mean? Is it some sort of minimal wage?

Current government introduced 500 PLN a month (about 25% of median net salary) for each kid younger than 18. It was promoted as a solution for demographic problems, but it barely helped, what it did instead is persuade people who don't care about politics to vote PIS. That and reversing the unpopular (but necessary) retirement reforms of previous government made PIS very popular and they used that popularity to uncon…

I see. In Russia Putin also introduced some payments for kids this year (or even earlier)

Re: Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

#58

Post by p_l »

bitcharmer wrote: post #28
trasz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, look at it this way: how bad it must have been for those people to prefer the 500zł instead? I'd say that's what the previous government missed completely: that the old state of affairs simply didn't work for many people.

It still doesn't work as all those social programs are unsustainable from fiscal viewpoint. It's all financed by debt and inflation.

The social programs could be made to work. They don't because all other areas of government are broken, but they make for good lightning rod for attention, both negative and positive.

There are some social programs that make no sense, like coal mining ones (we're at the point where I'd vote to have current coal miner wages frozen in exchange for closing the mines - i.e. everyone currently working underground would continue to get their last yearly wages till pension for not working at all)

And the budget is crushed by all sorts fraud and mismanagement, with vanity projects funneling money to people connected to Law&Justice party (examples: creating new passage between Vitula Lagoon and Baltic sea; new power generation block in Ostrołęka - currently demolished before it ever got finished; Centralny Port Komunikacyjny - a giant useless airport without reason to exist, and yet nearly no work is being done other than funnelling more and more money to friends; etc. etc.)

Re: Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

#59

Post by p_l »

trasz wrote: post #24
skocznymroczny wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Destroying is a bit of an overstatement. Unfortunately we live in a political climate, not only in Poland, that whenever left-wing candidates lose an election, it's populism and backsliding on democracy. But if the candidate that was supposed to win, wins, companies are all foreign owned and NGOs control all spheres of life, then it's freedom and democracy.

Except there were no left-wing candidates here. Poland has effectively two-party system, with both parties being somewhat right-wing.

Even worse, majority of politicians in two biggest party come from fracturing of previous right-wing party...

Re: Polish opposition duo hacked with NSO spyware

#60

Post by mberger »

passerby1 wrote: post #40
auggierose wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. As if it was beyond the Israelean government itself to resort to such tactics ... In fact, I know only very few governments where I would be willing to swear on my life that they would never use such tactics.

> I know only very few governments where I would be willing to swear on my life that they would never use such tactics. What are they?

Probably only the governments that can't afford it
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