Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#341

Post by Retric » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

Swenrekcah wrote: post #325

hunterb123 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if they were ruled at fault, just like any other company. If the operator was ruled at fault, they would receive consequences. Are you insinuating that Tesla operates on a higher level than the law and is receiving special privileges vs other automakers, or are you saying all automakers should be more accountable? What event are you pointing to they should be more accountable for? Or is this all just a vague hyp…

What if instead of hitting a child the car took control killed about 300 people? And what if it wasn’t in parking lot summons but regular driving assistance? And maybe it wasn’t a car but an airplane? Are you sure there would be any material consequences for the board and leadership?

Boing recently face real financial consequences from the 737 Max defect.

Holding companies to the same standards as members of the general public runs into an issue of how large an impact they have. A Surgeon is going to make mistakes that kill people, but just because people are imperfect doesn’t mean effectively banning surgery via sending every surgeon to prison after their first mistake is appropriate. Roll up to a single hospital and mistakes are inevitably common, roll up to a hospital network and serious mistakes happen every day. The only way organizations at that scale can operate is with quite a bit of slack.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#342

Post by natch » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

eulers_secret wrote: post #277

natch wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what would break if it was offline. I do know you can drive the car while the computer is rebooting (when it's rebooting the screen is completely black and you have to gauge your speed by comparison to other cars the road), so in theory it seems you don't need the computer for basic driving, which would suggest maybe what you say is also possible, if there's a setting for it. I haven't checked because I…

> seeing car's location on a map when it's being driven by someone else, viewing live dash cam (sentry) footage while the car is parked remotely... I'm concerned these features in specific may be used by abusive spouses to track and control their partners (or extract revenge upon them). It's honestly pretty grim when you can't even use the "shared" (abuser likely would be the sole 'owner' on the title) vehicles to es…

Agree about the abuse / tracking thing. Again, tradeoffs. Keep in mind these cars get updated over time and it can get better.

Management of driver profiles is still a work in progress for example. Some things work great and some features simply aren’t there yet. For example I have issues with music handoff between two different drivers on one family Spotify account (where each driver has their own Spotify account using their own distinct email). They could easily make it so that it knows by phone proximity which driver is in the car, and play only their music, but they haven’t gotten to this yet.

Anyway, in addition to stuff like music profile improvements, I’d expect privacy options to get better too.

The parking lot thing, I don’t see the harm really until the day when the likes of Google has a car gathering these recordings.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#343

Post by Ajedi32 » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #339

Ajedi32 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have no issue with the lienholder having ultimate control of car until the loan is paid off. As I said in my initial comment, that's completely beside the point. The problem here is that Model 3s are apparently "loyal" to their manufacturer rather than the owner, regardless of who that owner is (whether that be a lienholder, the car's "user", or anyone else that's not Tesla). That Tesla used that misplaced loyalt…

Are you okay with manufacturers helping with repossessions by cutting new physical keys for non-connected cars? If so, how is this any different?

See my comment 4 levels up from this one.

"I know what this person's key was when I sold him the car. Here, have a copy."

VS.

"I have full control of this person's car, even though I'm not the owner. Here, let me remotely disable it for you."

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#344

Post by captainredbeard » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 10:16 PM UTC

flutas wrote: post #189

chrisseaton wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> someone with the key can now remote summon the car Cars with remote summons features today basically just crawl forward a few metres to help you get out of a parking spot. They aren't self-driving across town to a repossession lot, if that's what you're thinking.

> Cars with remote summons features today basically just crawl forward a few metres to help you get out of a parking spot. Smart summon on a M3 (what the article is talking about) can back out and navigate parking lots... although horribly and slowly. But it's not just a straight line.

> Smart summon on a M3

M3 = BMW M3

Model 3 = what you're talking bout

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#345

Post by qubitcoder » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

notreallyserio wrote: post #221

Larrikin wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually prefer the subscription hell we are in now with companies like Adobe deciding we can no longer actually own any software and have to continuously rent it? Google actually seems like they will be first to full self driving. My biggest fear is that they continue to have zero interest in being an actual car company and keep all their Waymo tech locked behind their taxis and Lyfts are replaced by Waymos w…

> Do you actually prefer the subscription hell we are in now with companies like Adobe deciding we can no longer actually own any software and have to continuously rent it? No, I don't prefer software subscriptions with monthly fees. I don't find the "maintenance" required for software annoying or onerous. However, I really don't like car maintenance. Waiting for an oil change, tire replacement or rotation, or really…

I'm with you on detesting car maintenance when owning a vehicle.

To be fair, most of those maintenance options do go away with fully-electric vehicles. For example, you could lease a Tesla Model 3/Y. The process is impressively streamlined: pay $100 using Touch ID and Apple Pay, then select a pick-up date on the calendar. Now you have a vehicle with basically no maintenance, apart from topping up wiper fluid. All managed with an intuitive and highly-polished mobile app. In 3 years, repeat process.

My intention isn't to advertise for Tesla. I'm just pointing out that options exist nowadays for people who dislike the entire hassle of vehicle ownership (dealing with dealerships, negotiation, financing, scheduled & unscheduled maintenance, etc.)

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#346

Post by Swenrekcah » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 10:23 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #341

Swenrekcah wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if instead of hitting a child the car took control killed about 300 people? And what if it wasn’t in parking lot summons but regular driving assistance? And maybe it wasn’t a car but an airplane? Are you sure there would be any material consequences for the board and leadership?

Boing recently face real financial consequences from the 737 Max defect. Holding companies to the same standards as members of the general public runs into an issue of how large an impact they have. A Surgeon is going to make mistakes that kill people, but just because people are imperfect doesn’t mean effectively banning surgery via sending every surgeon to prison after their first mistake is appropriate. Roll up to…

The financial consequences are nothing for the company, even less for those responsible. For accountability there need to be personal consequences for cases of extreme and wilful negligence for cases like Boeings.

I’m not advocating for life in prison for the top brass, but some prison time surely.

Unless we just start issuing fines and warnings to the regular people to deal with manslaughter of criminal negligence.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#347

Post by t0mas88 » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

notreallyserio wrote: post #221

Larrikin wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually prefer the subscription hell we are in now with companies like Adobe deciding we can no longer actually own any software and have to continuously rent it? Google actually seems like they will be first to full self driving. My biggest fear is that they continue to have zero interest in being an actual car company and keep all their Waymo tech locked behind their taxis and Lyfts are replaced by Waymos w…

> Do you actually prefer the subscription hell we are in now with companies like Adobe deciding we can no longer actually own any software and have to continuously rent it? No, I don't prefer software subscriptions with monthly fees. I don't find the "maintenance" required for software annoying or onerous. However, I really don't like car maintenance. Waiting for an oil change, tire replacement or rotation, or really…

Don't the higher end car brands in your area do pickup/return service? BMW picks my car up from the office parking garage, changes oil or tires and returns it before the end of the day. All I have to do is pick a day in their online portal and leave the keys at he reception desk.

I very much prefer owning a car over renting because I can leave things in the car. Like child seats, but also extra clothes, diapers, a phone charger, some snacks etc.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#348

Post by maximus-decimus » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 11:27 PM UTC

prmoustache wrote: post #41

As a bicycle and old motorcycles user I am gobsmacked that so much people accept that the vehicule they are using is connected or regularly phone home to the manufacturer. I guess if you share all your life on facebook and instagram, why shouldn't you also give away all your errands to any third party. Is there at least a license agreement you are showned at and have to agree to upon delivery? Can you operate those v…

Google knows exactly where I do my groceries because of my phone's gps. They even send me a report every month to tell me everywhere I went.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#349

Post by filoleg » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 11:32 PM UTC

sangnoir wrote: post #323

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As stated in other places here, if you have leased or financed your car, YOU DON'T OWN IT. You pay for the right to use it on a monthly basis. That is why there are legal contracts. This is just automated repossession.

> That is why there are legal contracts. This is just automated repossession. There is value in adding friction to enforcing law/contracts: I don't know if FSD-repo crosses the line for me, but I know automating enforcement is bad for society. What if everytime Tesla cameras detect the car speeding, or has crossed double-lines, it helpfully charges the fine to the linked credit card? After all, its just automated tic…

I agree with your point about automated enforcement being bad, but there is nothing automated about the situation .

A lien-holder determined that the lender wasn’t paying the bills, so they manually made a decision to repossess the car. Just like with any other brand of a car, they reached out to the dealership (in this specific case, manufacturer is the same as the dealership, because Tesla sells directly with no franchises) and requested a way to access the vehicle. Normally it is done via a key copy. In this case, they used a digital version of it. Not that it matters meaningfully at all, but the car didn’t drive across town to the repo parking lot, current summoning feature cannot do that (the distance limit for the feature is a few hundred feet iirc).

And why does it matter if it was made easier to actually repossess the vehicle? It isn’t related to the automated ticketing analogy at all. There was no automatic detection, only automated enforcement. Just like with speeding tickets, i am totally ok with the cop not wasting his and my time writing me the ticket manually or making me wait for it by email, if it instead can be automated with a digital ticket/infraction in the system that i can check out when i get home.

To be more clear on why i think it is a bad analogy. Automated ticketing is automating human decision-making, which is an ambiguous blackbox process open to interpretation. As you said, doing so leads to a lot of unintended consequences. Actually physically repoing a car (after a manual decision to repo the car was made by a human) isn’t automating decision-making. The decision has already been consciously made, and there is not much room for interpretation when it comes to the physical process of repoing a car. The only variable is if the lender decides to hide the car or do something equally dumb, so it is not a good variable to have. And remotely disabling the car based on a manual human evaluation just seems to make the process of repoing it less prone to unintended bad variables.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#350

Post by oogali » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 11:43 PM UTC

spicybright wrote: post #305

angry-sw-dev wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lynchpin in these arguments is that you'll somehow be able to summon a vehicle on a moments notice and all your usage will still be less expensive than personal ownership. The cost will be low because no humans are involved... Except it didn't work for ZipCar or the rental agencies that have added hourly options -- sure it's not bad, but is it really pushing people out of car ownership? No... Ride sharing similar…

Not to mention, do you really trust 20 strangers to treat your possessions as well as you do? Have these people never been in the back of a taxi, or any kind of public transit?

I've pretty much abandoned Zipcar for this reason.

In the early days, it was great. But once membership increased, there was an increasing chance that I would get a car that was not particularly usable.

Filthy on the outside (dirt, mud, etc) and/or inside (dog hair, bodily fluids, etc).

Or a car that had one or more warning lights illuminated (check engine, brake, no wiper fluid, low gas, etc).

And each time I had to phone into Zipcar support to report it (and/or swap cars), otherwise the next user could report it -- leading to me being charged some cleaning fee or such.

The best experience I had was in Seattle when I entered a dirty Zipcar and called support who said I had to take the vehicle to a car wash otherwise they would charge me a cleaning fee.

While I understand I could have probably escalated to someone who understood the situation ("oh? you just got into the car 5 minutes ago?"), I decided it was a better use of my time to avoid short-term car rental programs altogether.