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Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

tiremeetsroad.com

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Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#311
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is quite that extreme of a slippery slope. For one, areas of unrest are already restricted by physical police and national guard barriers. For example, during the unrest in 2020, Chicago physically raised its drawbridges. Anyone who really wants to get somewhere difficult would probably choose a bicycle or legs, so you need physical police barriers in that case. Refusing to drive you to the gun sto…

Nah, I will continue to buy disconnected vehicles for as long as possible since I chose to live in a rural area of the country, and I expect my machine to start when I tell it to. People that live in Chicago or New York choose to give up their ability to travel without the need for the government that is their choice. And didn't the pandemic have a major impact on some public transit lines operation? Again I believe…

> I still want my vehicle to start regardless of the governments opinions on whether I should be traveling :)

No government was involved here, just a private company, who has the freedom to do as they please with their property and the responsibility to protect their assets.

> People that live in Chicago or New York choose to give up their ability to travel without the need for the government that is their choice.

What you're implying here is that city dwellers are government-dependent babies, which is very condescending to them. Choosing to drive your car on the public roads of your suburb or rural town doesn't make you any less dependent on society or the government.

Yes, transit systems had cuts due to ridership and revenue issues, and shut down at certain stations during unrest. Do you think a bank should keep its doors unlocked when there's unrest going on outside? These city transit systems were exercising their personal responsibility to protect public property, right?

> Again I believe in personal responsibility and freedom, I choose not to have that level of reliance on others.

Like it or not, you rely on others. There is little choice involved. There is almost no way to end that relationship entirely.

You probably drink from water that was managed by a government, and your poop is taken away either in a public sewer or on a septic truck driving on a public road. Unless you literally live out in the woods off of the land and never leave, you are a part of society, and libertarian hyper-individualist rhetoric can't change that. "Freedom" doesn't mean you're just allowed to do whatever you want at all times regardless of how it affects other people, but a lot of Americans have misconstrued the concept of freedom to mean just that.

Freedom as in democratic freedom has a lot more to do with freedom of speech, press, and elections. It doesn't mean you're free to drive on a road that is closed.

I was very clear in stating that I believe we need laws to prevent technology from becoming dystopian, but also I don't believe technology reaching the most dystopian version of its theoretical capabilities is inevitable or even particularly common. We can blame the technology all we want but it is rules of society that protects us from its abuse, not "personal freedom and responsibility."

The irony of your messaging is that your belief in freedom and responsibility would have to be applied to corporations as well as individuals. If you're free to make any choice, so are companies. Again, Tesla is, allegedly, exercising its own freedom and responsibility to protect its asset by repossessing its car.

Self-driving, interconnected cars could be an incredible boon to public safety, as car crashes are one of the top causes of premature death. Cars that can talk to each other and basically never crash into each other would be a dream world. We can talk about how technology would turn that into a surveillance dystopia, or we can build systems, laws, and checks on power that would make that technology enhance everyone's lives without significant downside or encroachment on "freedom."

The fact that Tesla cars are connected to a central server isn't the cause of abuses, it's the present legality of their harmful business practices. A great example: the car dealer system that Tesla lobbies against was put in place to protect consumers against overbearing manufacturers. Has that worked? In some cases, yes, in some cases, no.

In our present and most definitely not-libertarian society, the government has at least curbed unchecked corporate power by enacting laws like HIPAA that protect consumer rights and enforce interoperability. We need similar legislation and enforcement for non-healthcare technology. We need our own GDPR, but better, more comprehensive, and better designed. That will be difficult to achieve given the corporate influence on politics, but I do think we'll eventually get something, because even the elites in our society need protection from companies who want to exercise their freedom.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#312
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t usually vote up comments that are mostly humorous on HN, but there’s always an exception. To me the problem isn’t that they might, but that they can. I guess the fault is technically on the person who rented something under terrible terms, but the problem to me is that over time terrible terms seem to win out over reasonable ones. Not to mention, if Tesla is capable of doing this for rentals, I have to assume…

> over time terrible terms seem to win out over reasonable ones Tyranny of the marketplace, I guess. If most people are not bothered by the terrible terms, then the selection of items with non-terrible terms will be correspondingly small. Case in point: I'd like to buy a TV (even at a higher price) that does not have ads all over the interface. From what I can tell, as of right now there are approximately a handful o…

Buy industrial signage displays. You'll be paying a significant premium but it's basically the only way to get a high quality non-smart tv these days.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#313
post #12

The main issue here I guess, is Tesla assisting the bailiffs. Bailiffs (here in the UK) have certain legal rights to enter and repossess your house and/or remove property you haven't fully paid for. They are granted this right via a case-by-case court order. If Telsa are also granted the rights within the court order to assist the bailiffs, then presumably it would be a fully legal action. At the end of the day, you…

The "main issue" is that Tesla is even able to assist the bailiffs in this manner. If a remote party can, by design, lock you out of your car and take control of it without your consent, do you even really own the vehicle in the first place? Others have argued "well, you don't own the car, the bank does", but unless Tesla is somehow unable to do this with cars not owned by a lienholder, that's kinda beside the point…

This is by no means limited to Tesla, and is true of almost every new car sold now.

As an example, almost every new Ford sold in the USA since 2019 has standard 5G/GPS remote connectivity; even the cheapest entry level cars at Ford like the new Maverick can remotely over 5G unlock doors and remote start the engine (just like the 'owner' can in the Ford pass app, now standard spec on virtually all Fords.). The manufacturers of course love the extra usage metrics and can also over the air sell upgrades like 5G hotspot access and so forth. Many cars now have 5G/GPS receiver for metrics even if no connectivity or nav features whatsoever exposed to user.

My point is; aside from the use of "summon", this kind of locate, remote unlock and start by manufacturer is available on almost all new cars sold today, no matter how cheap - the 5G remote access tech has become increasingly ubiquitous. This is not something unique to the way Tesla creates it cars at all, especially in 2021.

> https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/fordpass-remot...

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#314
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but he same is true for physical keys. A car dealership can create a working key to steal/repossess your car in much the same way. We really need to move to strong crypto.

In my mind there's a significant difference between a dealership using their knowledge of the car to assist with repossession, and a manufacturer demonstrating that you never really had control of your own car in the first place. It just feels like a betrayal. Your car is loyal to the manufacturer, not to you. It will act in a manner directly opposed to your best interests as the owner if company that sold it to you…

As stated in other places here, if you have leased or financed your car, YOU DON'T OWN IT. You pay for the right to use it on a monthly basis.

That is why there are legal contracts. This is just automated repossession.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine, now, that self-driving combined with Uber pool, so that people who need to get from and to the same destinations at the same time (as is typical for commutes) would be able to share the ride. Imagine then making those vehicles larger to enable not only a decrease in traffic, but an increase in housing density, local infrastructure in walking distance, and economic growth. Imagine if we then realized we could…

The fact that Uber is so popular even though it is more than 10x the price of a bus shows exactly how much people want to ride buses.

An Uber (or personal car) also has the advantage of being able to take an alternate route. I used to work on the west side of Capitol Hill in Seattle and lived on the east side of the hill. Any time something like Hempfest or Pride was going on, it literally became faster to walk home than take the bus. If I was driving I could have taken an alternate route and gotten home in a fairly reasonable amount of time.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus no. The potential for abuse is just way too high. We can't even trust cops to not stalk random women [1] or to not beat up their family [2] - giving them even more possibilities to conduct crimes is not a good thing. Not to mention: what the police can exploit, so can attackers. [1]: https://psmag.com/news/stalker-cop-police-protection-danger-... [2]: https://sites.temple.edu/klugman/2020/07/20/do-40-of-police-…

I agree that this capability should never, ever be in the hands of the state, but don't extrapolate isolated instances and debunked statistics about the police as truths. Your own article demonstrates one of the major flaws of the domestic violence statistic, but doesn't discuss the most egregious methodological flaw: the criteria used for domestic violence, which includes shouting in the cited study. Cops are source…

> Cops are sourced from the general population

They are notably not. Usually, immigrants are drastically under-represented compared to general population (at least in Germany, you have to hold German or European citizenship to join the police force).

> so incidence rates need to be compared to the general population

Oh hell no. Police officers act on behalf of the government and with powers that are both far greater than those of ordinary people and not immediately appealable. As a result of that, police officers in Germany are actually held to extremely high standards by law (§34 BeamtStG - https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/beamtstg/__34.html) and receive at the very least two years of training.

I won't say our police are perfect (because they aren't, they still are a bunch of bullies), but they are orders of magnitude better than the trigger happy, barely educated (seriously, 360 hours of training?! - https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_9dd5d48b-2152...) morons that make up the US police force.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#317
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t usually vote up comments that are mostly humorous on HN, but there’s always an exception. To me the problem isn’t that they might, but that they can. I guess the fault is technically on the person who rented something under terrible terms, but the problem to me is that over time terrible terms seem to win out over reasonable ones. Not to mention, if Tesla is capable of doing this for rentals, I have to assume…

> over time terrible terms seem to win out over reasonable ones Tyranny of the marketplace, I guess. If most people are not bothered by the terrible terms, then the selection of items with non-terrible terms will be correspondingly small. Case in point: I'd like to buy a TV (even at a higher price) that does not have ads all over the interface. From what I can tell, as of right now there are approximately a handful o…

My solution is to never setup wifi or provide ethernet to my TVs. They can't vomit ads all over the screen or track what you're watching if they can't get online.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#318

I think the personal freedom and privacy implications of self driving cars with centralized communication are rarely talked about. What happens when your vehicle decides you can't travel to an area of civil unrest (for your safety), or refuses to drive you to the gun store?

Wait until the cars are required to drive you to the police station when you are accused of a crime....

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#319

I had a medical bill for a small amount like $60 sent to collections because they didn’t have the right address. Never called or emailed me. Judging by the comments here, the healthcare co would be well within its rights to pickpocket me.

Ugh I just had the same exact experience... right as I'm trying to get a mortgage. I wish they would have just pickpocketed me and not try to murder my credit over like $100.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#320
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s really not. This is hyperbole. Things are literally better now than ever before. More access to food, healthcare, and literacy on average for everyone in the world. More protection of basic human rights on average for everyone in the world. If now is the dystopian future, when in the past would you like to time travel to? Before or after polio vaccine? Gay rights? Before/after Abolition of slavery (in select…

It's must be sad for people to go through life with no ability to appreciate comedy whether it is good or bad. To think everything is so draconian in that it must be exactly how you want it to be is just further proof that it's darker than you want to believe.

I appreciate comedy, you're just not funny.

You think comedy is just saying things that are false?

Oh look, I'll just say the opposite of everything - haha wit!

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