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How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

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Re: How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

#31

Post by steve8918 »

mstroeck wrote: post #24
steve8918 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this only works if you know which file you are looking for. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but when I start up Finder, there's no way for me to start from the root directory. So already, I'm not sure exactly where I am. Then when I start drilling down into directories, etc, there's only one of 4 views that will give me some sort of indication where I am, but not really. I have to concatenate all the directo…

Wow, are you sure you're talking about the Mac OS X Finder :-) ? -) This option makes navigation much easier, I don't know why it's not turned on by default: http://macs.about.com/od/usingyourmac/qt/findertip1.htm -) You can drag any file or folder into a Terminal window - simply drag and drop. You can also simply "Cmd+C" a file, go to Terminal and do "Cmd+V". The absolute path of the copied file will be inserted.

Hmmmm, thanks for that tip! I'll try it out!

Re: How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

#32

Post by iaskwhy »

masklinn wrote: post #16
ams6110 wrote: post #12

The point that (most) users just want to "find their files" and not "explore the filesystem" is a good one. That said I think both Apple and Microsoft have not found the optimal solution but instead seem to be stuck in local maxima. I actually tend to use the shell for almost all file management tasks. But it seems to me to be an exercise in futility to try and make a file manager app that pleases both users who just…

> That said I think both Apple and Microsoft have not found the optimal solution but instead seem to be stuck in local maxima. The Finder is not a maxima in any search space. It's always been terrible (where always == since OSX was first released) and it has not significantly improved over time. As to Windows's explorer, I've find it regressing over time: I have not found 7's explorer to be superior to 2k/XP's under…

On the upside you have the amazing breadcrumbs... I do prefer Windows 7's explorer to any other version before.

Re: How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

#33

Post by crenshaw »

spooneybarger wrote: post #23
mkr-hn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The submission itself is "us vs. them." What did you expect?

I think web intelligentsia and putting designers in quotes is way beyond anything in the submission itself, but on these things everyone's mileage will probably vary. That aside, I find your argument to rather odd. I would extrapolate from that general idea of responding in kind that if someone is rude to you on someplace like HN, that it would be reasonable to expect rudeness in return, perhaps even that is justifie…

I found neither the original article nor any comment here rude. Some are blunter than others, but I didn't find anything that I felt like anyone should be offended by. He didn't call anyone an idiot, he just said they're wrong. I think calling people wrong is reasonable in the space of web discussion/debate.

Re: How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

#34

Post by nhebb »

spooneybarger wrote: post #18
kenjackson wrote: post #7

Actually this blog post I think is a perfect example of how "designers" in the large don't get it. The ribbon was largely maligned for Office too by the web intelligencia, but as someone who spent time in the enterprise both consulting and selling apps, the ribbon is generally loved by its users. The people who hate the ribbon are the people who use OSX. Try giving Word 2003 to anyone who has spent any time with Word…

'web intelligencia'? i think you could have made your point without a cheap us against them anti intellectualism aside.

I didn't take that as an anti-intellectualism slight. People who write tech pieces on the web, be it on blogs or tech publications, are more computer savvy than the the majority of computer users. If you don't believe this, go watch the Google on-the-street video asking people what a browser is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ).

I was one of those power users who hated the ribbon when it was introduced in Office 2007. But my wife and kids - they loved it.

[Edit - since I can't reply to thread below (why is that?)]

I sell an Excel add-in, so I have a different perspective than most power users. The ribbon is a pain to program compared to the old command bars, making me dislike it at first. I've learned to appreciate it, though, because it's a lot easier to convey the add-in's features via the ribbon than it is using 16x16 icons on a command bar.

Re: How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

#35

Post by m_eiman »

pooriaazimi wrote: post #27
camtarn wrote: post #5

Okay, and once the users have found their documents in the beautiful Finder, what are they going to do with them? This seems to be another case of someone confusing attractiveness with usability. The article fails to explain why the author thinks that the Finder makes it easier and/or more obvious for users to figure out how to manipulate their files. What are the motivations and needs of these users (apart from 'I w…

Finder is not all about beauty. What I like most about Finder (which makes me cry every time I have to use Windows) is QuickLook. It's SO much easier to quickly glance at a document than anything WE has to offer. I personally hate ribbons, but I think for the average user they are great, and much easier to use. So I'm not defending Apple here, I'm just saying that It's not all about beauty or slickness; Finder is als…

Finder is also powerful, but in its own ways (only if it had tabs...)

TotalFinder to the rescue!

http://totalfinder.binaryage.com/

Re: How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

#36

Post by mikeash »

steve8918 wrote: post #22
mstroeck wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard of Spotlight? It's the button at the upper right of your screen. It indexes all your files. If you are talking about files that belong to the UNIX underpinnings of Mac OS X: that's what locate is for, for example - try typing that into a Terminal window.

I think this only works if you know which file you are looking for. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but when I start up Finder, there's no way for me to start from the root directory. So already, I'm not sure exactly where I am. Then when I start drilling down into directories, etc, there's only one of 4 views that will give me some sort of indication where I am, but not really. I have to concatenate all the directo…

Go->Computer will get you to the "root directory", as the Finder understands it.

Re: How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

#37

Post by mkr-hn »

steve8918 wrote: post #26
mkr-hn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you used the ribbon interface in Office?

Yes, I use it at work (I use Office 2003 at home). I've grown up on 20 years of Microsoft Word (since Word 2.0 on DOS) so I'm very familiar with the menu system, and I know the features that I need. So Ribbon is annoying for me. I'm sure for new users it's not annoying at all, because it's all they know, and they might find the menu system hard to use. Hence my point that for new users who tried to migrate to OpenOff…

I've used Office/OO.o/LibreOffice/WordPerfect for most of my life and had no problem with the ribbon. I've used thousands of interfaces across several OS families, so maybe neither of us has a clue. Bias and anecdata are hard to see past.

Are you sure you're not extrapolating your use case into the audience MS is targeting?

And I'm not sure this is a problem. From my perspective, the ribbon is a huge improvement. Should Microsoft focus on cross-OS metaphors? I want them to focus on improving their product.

Re: How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

#38

Post by nirvana »

camtarn wrote: post #5

Okay, and once the users have found their documents in the beautiful Finder, what are they going to do with them? This seems to be another case of someone confusing attractiveness with usability. The article fails to explain why the author thinks that the Finder makes it easier and/or more obvious for users to figure out how to manipulate their files. What are the motivations and needs of these users (apart from 'I w…

Some very common file operations are moving files and copying files. On the finder, you grab the files and drag them to the place you want them to go. Under windows, people are trained to select the files, press the copy key command, go to the new location, and press the paste key command.

Microsoft, seeing that the paste function is the most used, makes the paste button bigger. The problem is, there's a much easier way to do it-- you can drag and drop in windows (at least I hope you can!). Unfortunately, windows users don't know this (by the evidence of them using paste a lot in microsofts stats, and my experiences with average people who are used to windows). By making the cut, copy and paste buttons bigger and more prominent, Microsoft is reinforcing the slower, less intuitive way of doing things.

Finder is not sacrificing usability to look pretty, finder looks pretty because it is more usable. You present users with 100 buttons on every window, and it doesn't matter how big you make them, they're going to have trouble figuring out what they're doing- the whole interface adds a constant cognitive load that slows the user down and increases confusion.

With the finder, there are a lot fewer buttons and its a lot easier to figure out what to do (in fact, most of the arbitrary commands are hidden under one button.) In the finder, they use the desktop metaphor, and you mostly manipulate files directly.

Re: How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

#39

Post by nhebb »

kenjackson wrote: post #7

Actually this blog post I think is a perfect example of how "designers" in the large don't get it. The ribbon was largely maligned for Office too by the web intelligencia, but as someone who spent time in the enterprise both consulting and selling apps, the ribbon is generally loved by its users. The people who hate the ribbon are the people who use OSX. Try giving Word 2003 to anyone who has spent any time with Word…

While I generally agree with what you've written, I still think it's odd that Microsoft has never included many features in Explorer that are the main selling points for 3rd party file explorers, e.g. dual pane view, bulk rename, toolbar customization, and so forth. I understand that Microsoft may not want to undercut ISV's, but easy access to file operations should be intrinsic to an operating system.

Re: How Microsoft misunderstands the concept of user research (& how Apple doesn’t)

#40

Post by [deleted] »

spooneybarger wrote: post #23
mkr-hn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The submission itself is "us vs. them." What did you expect?

I think web intelligentsia and putting designers in quotes is way beyond anything in the submission itself, but on these things everyone's mileage will probably vary. That aside, I find your argument to rather odd. I would extrapolate from that general idea of responding in kind that if someone is rude to you on someplace like HN, that it would be reasonable to expect rudeness in return, perhaps even that is justifie…

[deleted]
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