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Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

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Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#71

Post by themitigating »

fxtentacle wrote: post #54
shadowgovt wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is legally the owner when a car is repossessed? I'd say autonomous vehicles are pro-social machines. They will, in general, act to follow the rules established, ideally more often than a "dumb" car operated by a human. Given how many traffic accidents are human caused, that's sort of the point of the entire exercise.

I would argue that before it is successfully repossessed, the old person is still the owner. They'd also be the one liable if something goes wrong. So we have disconnected the liabilities of ownership from the advantages of ownership. In the past, this type of disconnect has led to companies exploiting it for profit.

If you financed the car the bank owns it. It's not an opinion.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#72

Post by jemfinch »

simonh wrote: post #44
KptMarchewa wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it reversed: that the repossession takes place because the legal title to the vehicle changed, due to the contract being broken by lack of payment?

Correct. I meant when the repossession order is issued.

This isn't how it works in the US. In the US, the car is titled to the bank until the loan is paid in full, then the bank transfers the title to you.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#73

Post by chrisseaton »

k8sToGo wrote: post #5
aneutron wrote: post #4

While this is an "interesting" story, I'd love to get some verification on it. It sounds plausible, but almost illegal ? I'm in EU so don't know how really things work over there, but I would assume Tesla would need a judicial order siding with the bank to be able to do this ? I mean it's probably not the wild west over there. Or is it ?

We do not have Repo in EU like they do in the US.

Are you sure about that? I thought repossession of collateral from a defaulted loan is a basic part of cultures with both common and code law.

https://www.frenchentree.com/french-property/law/so-you-cant...

What happens if you don't pay your mortgage where you live?

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#74

Post by knorker »

rvz wrote: post #6

Unsurprising and seen here: [0] A text book definition of a backdoor. It is still not your car. It is still Tesla's. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26512855

No, if you don't pay for it then it's the bank's car.

It's like saying "the super stole my TV!!" when actually the super just let the police in with a search warrant, and they took the TV you stole down to the station.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#75

Post by martin8412 »

themitigating wrote: post #63
fxtentacle wrote: post #47

The advantage of autonomous cars is that they can resist their owner. That enables big cost savings for everyone (insurance, manufacturer, rental, leasing, repo). Well, everyone except for the "owner".

You don't own the car that's financed until you pay it off

Here you do. A lien is placed on the car, so any debt follows the car in the case of transfer of ownership.

That said, repossession of things are not a thing here either.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#76

Post by sys_64738 »

scoopertrooper wrote: post #31
staticassertion wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, though I think that ideally companies are advocates for their customers. For example, companies have to turn information over to courts, but they can push back on some, and publish transparency reports for others. Yes, they have to comply with the law, but imo a company has an obligation to advocate for their customers.

Well, technically, the bank owns the car till you pay it off. So, maybe they are advocating for their customers?

The bank uses title of vehicle as collateral. You own the vehicle but allow repossession for failing to clear the debt. But just because the car is repossessed doesn’t clear the debt unless the vehicle covers the debt wholly. Bank will sue for the difference.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#77

Post by ezfe »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #70
hatchnyc wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So…in case you plan to not pay for it but still keep it anyway? I am really struggling to understand the mindset here of what I assume are mostly well paid professional software developers. If I defaulted on a car loan (I don’t know the details exactly off the top of my head, but this entails more than just missing a payment) I’d be quite ashamed of myself and return the car myself with an apology. I cannot understan…

That's not the point. The car has a capability to lock you out, and all it takes is for someone to activate that capability. I don't want that in a car.

Spoiler Alert: this applies to most new cars

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#78

Post by rndgermandude »

grishka wrote: post #56
prmoustache wrote: post #41

As a bicycle and old motorcycles user I am gobsmacked that so much people accept that the vehicule they are using is connected or regularly phone home to the manufacturer. I guess if you share all your life on facebook and instagram, why shouldn't you also give away all your errands to any third party. Is there at least a license agreement you are showned at and have to agree to upon delivery? Can you operate those v…

Also, what happens if you remove the SIM card or the cellular antenna?

There was a story of some rental car that couldn't be unlocked again on some remote parking lot, because it was out of range. The customer did nothing wrong. They ended up having to tow the car in the end, if I remember correctly.

With actual possession of vehicles going down, in favor of leases (or leases-to-buy) and short term rentals/"ride-sharing", and with ever more permanent monitoring, the future seems to go into a direction where you're required to have a constantly available data connection in your car back to the car company or lease company, and they will be able to remotely disable access if you don't pay up. And they will probably consider loss of such connection as "tampering" and disable the cars until it gets online again.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#79

Post by lnsru »

grishka wrote: post #56
prmoustache wrote: post #41

As a bicycle and old motorcycles user I am gobsmacked that so much people accept that the vehicule they are using is connected or regularly phone home to the manufacturer. I guess if you share all your life on facebook and instagram, why shouldn't you also give away all your errands to any third party. Is there at least a license agreement you are showned at and have to agree to upon delivery? Can you operate those v…

Also, what happens if you remove the SIM card or the cellular antenna?

All the data is stored in the car and next time during regular service it gets transferred to the manufacturer using wired connection? Have no proof for that, but it sounds very reasonable and technically doable to me.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#80

Post by jhgb »

tialaramex wrote: post #65
jhgb wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Loan" sounds so generic to me that what you're saying may or may not be true in different places.

I'm sure that somewhere has crazy rules but the general idea of a secured loan is the lender can easily take your security if you don't pay the debt. If not for that it isn't secured, is it? Car loans are secured on a car. If you want to just borrow money with no security you can get a (likely far more expensive) unsecured loan if the bank judges this to be a good risk, or take an overdraft on a current account or us…

Collaterals don't require ownership by bank where I live. Loaned cars are owned by their loaners (but leased cars aren't, although they may transfer ownership to the leaser after a period of time, depending on the terms of the lease). Not sure how these things work in the UK, though.
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