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Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

economist.com

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Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#271

Post by thesuperbigfrog »

Aeolun wrote: post #233
nindalf wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of the world is scared of even offending China by calling Taiwan a country. You really think they’re going to go to war over Taiwan?

They’re not really scared of offending China, they’re scared of triggering that war. If China triggers that war all the hesitancy will be gone. That said, I’d expected more of a reaction to the annexation of Hong Kong too.

Hong Kong was not "annexed". It returned to China's control from the UK by treaty.

"One country, two systems" is being curtailed early, but that is harder to argue against without a foreign power there to do anything about it.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#272

Post by jackTheMan »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #99
subroutine wrote: post #44

China would be much better off if they just gave up on the whole Taiwan charade. I understand how badly they want to put Taiwan under thumb like they did HK, but Taiwan is really the only issue I foresee with potential to derail China's progress.

It isn't that easy. It's not just China's government that believes Taiwan is part of China — China's people also believe that. There is a saying that if China is democratic, they would have invaded Taiwan yesterday. Or another saying: if the president lets go of Taiwan, the CCP would be overthrown tomorrow. Another factor that complicates things is the fact that Taiwan is a strategic location for the US's military co…

I haven't found anybody actually who would care, only for recent nationalistic voices. If that would be lowered, they wouldn't care less.

And even for those who "cared" I've explained, that imagine yourself as a Taiwanese, who had and always will have a better life than any mainlander. Would they want to have a dictator above themself who beat them up like they did with HKese? So far, I've found no mainlanders yet who would still insisted to take them over. (of course personally, in chat it might be different)

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#273

Post by stickfigure »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #208
zucker42 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy this. If the government would stop making "reunification" so prominent in official rhetoric, eventually there would be room to back down from the hardline view on Taiwan. Maybe not tomorrow, but certainly in 30 or 50 years. The government is feeding the flames of nationalism by making Taiwan such a prominent issue. The reason the CCP won't back down on Taiwan is not because they can't, but exactly because…

Saying that Taiwan is merely a nationalism and internal unity issue, and that people's views are merely a result of propaganda, ignores the very history of how Taiwan came to be and how the Chinese civil war developed. Your take also ignores the fact that unification is Chinese core value, which is valued more than western freedom of speech, and that this core value has been around for thousands of years. But more im…

Then there will be a war. Sad.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#274

Post by sudosysgen »

BrazzVuvuzela wrote: post #235
sudosysgen wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're forgetting about Chinese intelligence. It would never work once the Chinese notice and it would only provide an actually valid casus belli

China could accuse Taiwan of developing nuclear weapons today, saying their spies uncovered the plot. Would you, I or anybody else be able to refute it? Would our doubt matter? And if Taiwan really did start manufacturing nuclear bombs and China was telling the truth about it, would you, I or others in the West believe them? The 'actual validity' of a casus belli has never really counted for much.

The difference is that, if they actually did start manufacturing the bomb, China would almost certainly be able to provide incontrovertible evidence.

If they didn't provide evidence, yes, we coule refute it.

The West will pretend that Taiwan wasn't doing that anyways. That's why I said 80%.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#275

Post by [deleted] »

alkonaut wrote: post #243

China has already started pressuring companies with manufacturing in China such as Continental, that they should get out of Lithuania or risk losing access to the Chinese market. This just goes to show one thing: western companies have to leave the Chinese market and all its money on the table . Unless you are ready to live under constant threat of political pressure/blackmail, risk being spied on, forced to censorsh…

[deleted]

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#276

Post by ericmay »

jessaustin wrote: post #172
Galanwe wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if they just stopped talking about Taiwan I doubt many people in the mainland would care Not at all. For a mainlander, Taiwan _is_ a region of China, think of it as Hawai for the US. People in the west see Taiwan as a separate country that China tries to forcibly absorb. People in mainland see Taiwan as a region of China that tries to be independent. Also, there is a lot of eyes on the Taiwan case from mainlanders…

For a mainlander, Taiwan _is_ a region of China, think of it as Hawai for the US. Where I live in the Midwest USA, nobody would care if Hawai'i claimed its independence in some not-harmful-to-tourists-nor-threatening-to-military-fuel-depots fashion. That doesn't mean it would be easy. Much as was seen in the original USA annexation of Hawai'i, it is very common for interested parties to create violence where none nat…

> Where I live in the Midwest USA, nobody would care if Hawai'i claimed its independence in some not-harmful-to-tourists-nor-threatening-to-military-fuel-depots fashion.

Also Midwest/Great Lakes and I’m not sure about that. I know I’d be pretty upset about it just as I would be if Texas tried to seriously secede or similar. I wonder what a poll would show? I hadn’t thought about Hawaii like you have but it would be interesting.

I was stationed there too. It felt like America on an island. It was weird.

The Us would never let it happen though. Too strategically important

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#277

Post by mark_l_watson »

imiric wrote: post #261
mark_l_watson wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 thanks for that, now that I think about this issue, that is the way I feel also. A few of my friends think I am overboard when I talk positively about China, but really I am just reacting to how wonderful the people there were when my wife and I travelled in China, and I also really respect their AI tech, their tech in general, and how so many people have moved out of poverty. It is just their current government t…

Governments are a reflection of the people. They're not some nebulous, abstract entity; they're literally made and run by people of each country. They're chosen–or in some cases imposed–to represent the people to the world. Even in dictatorships, it is the people that choose for governments to remain in power. When that stops being the case, governments are overthrown, and a new set of people take power. The people o…

Seriously, I wish I had your optimism that governments reflect the people. I really do.

In my worldview, and I am likely at least partially wrong, I think that almost all governments are totally controlled by corporate and elite interests - same as news media.

I do try to not get too upset by this, and I just try to be a decent person. Really, I am just an average person so what else can I do?

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#278

Post by loeg »

croes wrote: post #244
motiejus wrote: post #200

I am Lithuanian; Lithuania Taiwan PRC conflict is frequently a topic of discussion these days among my peers. My position, shared by a few others, is that this is the next best thing that happened in Lithuania after leaving USSR: the first being joining NATO and EU in 2004. Everyone in the world can (and almost everyone do) endorse PRC. "You won't get fired for picking IBM/Oracle/PRC". While very few countries have t…

The whole west depends on cheap labor and cheap resources that doesn't fit with human rights and economic interdependence prevents wars. Lithuania is small so the impact of a chinese boycott could be compensated by other countries, a full trade war has lot more impact, short term and long term. You understimate the chaos that then comes into being.

Chinese labor is less cheap than it once was, and rising.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#279

Post by riffraff »

rayiner wrote: post #246
Pmop wrote: post #218

> packages(/containers) from PRC are delayed or cancelled, invoices are not being paid, we are losing business there I think the whole western world should stop playing games with the bully state that is PRC.

Who is China bullying except it’s own people?

China won't allow airlines to say they fly to Taiwan. Western media frequently defer to PRC rules (the latest one: Top Gun sequel removing the taiwanese flag). John Cena had to publicly apologize because he referred to Taiwan as a country. Chinese vessels regularly violate territorial waters, and there is an ongoing spat with India around their borders.

The PRC is bullying the whole planet, and people are letting them do it in name of profit.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#280

Post by whimsicalism »

lui8906 wrote: post #266
rayiner wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is China bullying except it’s own people?

Look to their diplomatic behavior around the South China Sea for the last couple of decades.

The US views itself as the enforcer of UNCLOS for all navigable bodies of water in the entire world, a treaty it hasn't ratified.

It has tons of military bases in the SCS, a region not even close to it, compared to the furor when it becomes possible that China might build a single military base along Africa's atlantic coast.

It seems like a bit of a double standard to me.

I wish a good faith discussion about China was possible here, but I think that HN swings pretty jingoistic on these issues.

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