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Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)

blog.wolfram.com

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Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)

#131
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never heard it that way. If you can fork it, it's open source, even if contributions are not accepted upstream. If upstream accepts patches but does not allow forks, it's not open source. It's about the license, not the project's governance model.

The way I always understood it is that "open source" and "free software" are orthogonal concepts: Open source = bazaar-style (highly-decentralized development) Not open source = cathedral-style (highly-centralized development) Free software = source code released under a license that grants rights such as freedom to modify, redistribute, own a copy of, etc. (see [1] for the proper definition) Nonfree software = sourc…

> Open source = bazaar-style (highly-decentralized development)

> Not open source = cathedral-style (highly-centralized development)

Don't conflate cathedral/bazaar to mean open-source/not-open-source. Wasn't the original example of cathedral the open source Emacs project?

Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)

#132
Well, that's a cancelled subscription from me.

I have no problem with them not being Open Source, but these arguments are all orthogonal to being Open Source.

There is a valid argument for not being Open Source: "We think a proprietary program with a monthly license fee is the best business model for our company and product."

You say that, I respect you. You bring a bunch of bad arguments, I lose trust.

Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)

#133
> open source distributes design over small, self-assembling groups who individually tackle parts of an overall task, but large-scale, unified design needs centralized control and sustained effort.

I actually think at a minimum that this isn't true, but it's also possible that the complete opposite is true.

OSS has maintainers who know what they're doing. Fundamentally, one of their most important jobs is to gatekeep bad code and ideas from their project. It can be distributed, but it's not intrinsic to OSS at all. I find that usually the opposite is the case, and that maintainers leverage the technical controls they have over projects (basically PR's and RFC's) to "anchor" all decisions through them, while still trying to scale the work by having other people do as much of the work as possible.

However, I would say that potentially the even the reverse of what the author is saying is true in same cases.

> design over small, self-assembling groups who individually tackle parts of an overall task

From my perspective in a lot of privately run companies, the design and features that end up making it to production are actually a bunch of little compromises between special interests within a company, who are all vying for control and credit of the product. It's precisely because OSS is free and requires an extremely high degree of skill upon the maintainers that it's able to eschew these kinds of office politics and deliver what they think is the "best" for the software.

Obviously some projects are better than others, but I think there's a reason that OSS almost always tends to be of much higher quality than privately developed software. These "self-assembling" groups that organize along political boundaries of various product owners or managers is probably one thing that doesn't help get the best ideas to find immediate traction.

Am I wrong about this?

Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)

#134
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've made the mistake of expressing an unpopular opinion, so you're getting down voted. I strongly dislike proprietary software, but you raise valid concerns that should be considered instead of being downvoted into silence. (edit: at the time I wrote this comment, the parent appeared to be headed for oblivion, happily that appears to have improved) I don't know that open sourcing Java killed Sun. More likely it wa…

Providing Java for free (no matter whether open or closed-source) was a big strategic blunder for Sun: it commoditized CPU architectures by providing an abstraction layer over them. Write once, run anywhere! The problem was, Intel chips were cheaper. So people just ran their Java workloads on their existing x86 PCs instead of buying expensive Sun hardware. Sun should have never written or released Java: it consumed r…

> it commoditized CPU architectures by providing an abstraction layer over them

I think that was part of the point - let people run their existing applications on Sun hardware. Yes it was more expensive but it was also more capable. Emphasising running on lots of smaller 'commodity' instances wasn't yet the done thing at the time.

Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)

#135

This is just the usual "proprietary software is higher quality, we swear". Accurately voicing my thoughts on this would probably go against the HN guidelines, so I'll just let this sentence from the article speak for itself: >But our vision is a grand one—unify all of computation into a single coherent language, and for that, the FOSS development model is not well suited. Well, good luck with that.

Well propietary software is usually higher quality.

I'm a big open source proponent. I contribute to projects I use, either with patches, or donations, but I know I'm sacrificing quality for a guarantee and a peace of mind that comes with open source.

It's kind of like how a friend of mine explained Halal Stock ETFs to me (they track stock indexes but remove companies with high debt loads or which sell haraam products like beer). He said, they will almost always underperform the regular stock market index. You aren't buying them to outperform those. You are buying them for a separate feature than product quality (religious compliance). That should be worth the drop in quality to you.

Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)

#137
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are arguing it does have impact on that. The company that created Java went out of business and was sold to Oracle for a fraction of its original worth. So Java was a business failure -- or at least I'd be interested to see someone defend Java as a business success. So I think it's realistic to at least engage with their argument seriously rather than dismiss it. The argument is that open source licenses are inc…

> The argument is that open source licenses are incompatible with the kind paid license they're offering their customers. I don’t see them making that argument in all these points. For example they say > Crowd-sourced decisions can be bad for you Well ok that’s a valid point so… don’t do that. Crowd sourcing design decisions or code is not a fundamental part of open source. You can have open source but do all the dev…

Lua is an example of open source licensing with closed development process. SQLite is similar (though public domain instead of OSS code). It's a pretty poor justification to say OSS itself is bad for Wolfram based on that.

Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)

#138

Most of these are about wanting control over the design of the software - but releasing their code doesn't have any impact on that - I don't get it? Java is open source - Oracle still tightly controls and manages the design of Java. For example 'Bad design is expensive' - how releasing your source lead to bad design? That's a complete non-sequitur.

I think the argument is more that open sourcing adds incentives and friction that significantly increase the cost of maintaining control/alignment. Or to put it another way, maintaining good design becomes more expensive in an open source model and people respond to economic gradients, changing outcomes at the margin. I've seen this happen consistently, even when limiting "open sourcing" to throwing a tarball over the wall occasionally, it always adds to costs. That burden has to be paid by someone, and not every company or individual can or is willing to absorb it; in many cases the notional benefits of open sourcing are sufficiently limited to be less than the incurred costs.

That said, I am skeptical that many of the points in the post apply to Wolfram specifically, I suspect that is more aspirational on their part. Nonetheless, many of the points are valid as a generalization.

Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)

#139
post #114
post #48

I have a friend that uses Mathematica, and I had some symbolic math I wanted to run a solver on last week, so I thought I'd give it a try. It wasn't any better than sympy from what I could tell. I ended up taking a monte carlo approach anyway. Generating the simulations was soooo slow in Mathematica compared to numpy. After that demo, I'll have to say the Python ecosystem is far superior for all it's flaws. Sure the…

Numerical simulations and jit-compiled autodiffed float32 operations are not Mathematica's main purpose.

I think it's disingenuous to say simulations aren't the main purpose when it's built into many places like `NIntegrate[f, ..., Method -> MonteCarlo]`, and calculus definitely a main purpose of Mathematica.

My point with jax wasn't that I want it to be that, but that Wolfram Tech is never going to be able to compete with specialized solutions. Instead what you have is a tool that does a lot of things poorly, and kind of the antithesis to this article--with the main point being Wolfram Tech is built off of open research & open source.

Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think they’re confusing source licensing with a development methodology. Which is why as nitpicky as it sounds, we should really be making an effort not to use the term "open source" to refer to both.

There are dozens of edge cases that you can argue; is redistribution allowed, is attribution required, etc. - open source is a blanket statement and is perfectly suitable as a term IMO.

Open source is a well defined term that means a very specific thing. The definition is exactly 1 sentence long. It's not a blanket term at all.

Something is Open Sources if the code is published under a license that grants the user the right to study, change and redistribute to anyone and for any purpose.

There is other similar things, like source available, or stricter subsets like Free Software. And there is many things associated with open source, like collaborative development in public, community building and so on.

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