Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#411

Post by illuminati1911 » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 8:29 AM UTC

landemva wrote: post #409

ivan_gammel wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA will have to give a shit for one reason: the war against Baltics or Poland is the war against whole Europe. Germany will not stay away and observe, as will not do France or Italy. EU is the largest trade partner of USA, the biggest market for its exports etc. Regardless of the strategic games in the Pacific, USA cannot afford to lose it or to allow it to be devastated by a big war.

I am all for international trade. But can we let the European countries grow up and provide their own defense? USA can't really afford another decade of aggressive military meddling. Deficits are running away from any plausibly realistic plan to balance spending and tax receipts, so we are economically killing our future.

Grow up? US used NATO article 5 to get European NATO partners to join US wars in the middle east. The soldiers went there and died in US conflicts to help you with your ”war on terror”.

How about pay your fucking debt and keep Russia at bay.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#412

Post by aurizon » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 11:56 AM UTC

Nasreddin_Hodja wrote: post #403

aurizon wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russian budgeted costs are far higher in 'cross border equalisation' terms than 60 billion - Russia probably get 2-3 times as much purchasing power. If Ukraine is attacked they will fight to the death - they know what life under Russia was like and the killings. In addition, almost all cross border shipments of all kinds to Russia will stop, as the USA/EU will go to maximum embargo state. China will supply stuff by r…

> If Ukraine is attacked they will fight to the death They will not. They gave up Crimea almost without fight. Many people at Ukraine are russian speaking and many of them don't mind becoming a part of Russia, just like Criemea people. Just compare with Chechen war in 90's.

True, it was Russia before...

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#413

Post by artem247 » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

myth_drannon wrote: post #373

adrr wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine had the people and means to make them operational. It also currently has the means to create new nuclear weapons with uranium mines, research reactors and nuclear physics expertise. Also expertise to create ICBMs. Russia has ensured that no nuclear nation will ever disarm because treaties are just a piece a paper and world will just sit back and do nothing when it is violated.

That's just a pure speculation, could or could not. Ukraine is a semi-failed state with an ongoing civil war(and was for decades), it can't create anything new unfortunately. Improve some old Soviet technology maybe, but ICBMs... The discussions should not be about weapons but on how Ukraine can pull itself from the current hole it dug in.

"Ukraine is a semi-failed state with an ongoing civil war(and was for decades)" It is a pure lie, there was no conflict in 1991-2014. What's a semi-failed state? How do you define it?

"how Ukraine can pull itself from the current hole it dug in" What do you mean by digging a hole?

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#414

Post by artem247 » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #253

bigbizisverywyz wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, the Crimea is quite different in one key respect: most of its people, being Russian, prefer to be in Russia. In fact, one can >argue that it is in the political interest of Ukrainian nationalists to have Crimea in Russia. Without the votes from Crimea, Viktor >Yanukovich would never have been elected president. This is actually a very interesting point, and would explain Ukraine's recent shift to more natio…

I dunno how accurate this is, but back when protests against Yanukovich started, I saw people on reddit predicting his ouster and civil war, because of the history of Poland... Seemly Poland in the run up to WW2 got parts of it conquered by URSS, and later when WW2 was over, some territory that was part of Germany became part of Poland to "restore" its territory, effectively shifting Poland westward, this means that…

The part of Poland that was annexed during WW2 had 3 major ethnic groups there - Polish people, Ukrainians and Jews. Most of the Jews got executed during the war, Polish were sent back to Poland by Stalin.

Yet culturally Western Ukraine has much less ties with Russia, due to not being a part of Russian empire.

Again and again, I read this 'ethnic' treatment of conflict in Ukraine. That is not true, for example Kyiv is majority (even today) Russian-speaking, yet it always supported pro-West politicians in elections.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#415

Post by artem247 » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

gritzko wrote: post #39

I observe the Ukrainian drama for many years. I strongly suspect that the actual game maybe the opposite of the picture in the media. Ukraine is looted to the bone and the economy is in downward spiral. The beneficiaries of the looting may need a war to write it all off. Meanwhile, if Putin takes Ukraine, he would shoulder a giant pile of debt, plus the responsibility for everything that happens. So the actual game m…

Okay, have you ever been to Ukraine? What does it mean - looted to the bone? Why do you think Ukraine is that much different to Russia?

Ukraine GDP is improving from 2016 till now, even with pandemic. Some industries, like software and agriculture are growing at a great rate. Yet, some guy who watches Russian TV is painting absurd picture

Again, you don't know how external debt works, debt had nothing to do with collapse of Soviet Union, learn the history of your own country. Even then, Ukraine has lower debt to GDP ratio then Japan, Italy, Greece, United States, Canada, Spain, France, Belgium, United Kingdom, Israel...

Something that Russians tell themselves every day - how everything is very bad in Ukraine, how it is going down. Sure.

Oh, you observe the 'drame', with your all-seeing eye, fucking cockroach.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#416

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

trasz wrote: post #393

torstenvl wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chelsea Manning wasn't tortured. The USG even paid for her gender reassignment surgery, and she was released early from her sentence. No reasonable person can call that torture. The claim isn't "there were a million excess deaths in a multiparty conflict," the claim is that the U.S. killed a million people. The vast majority of civilian killings were by ISIS and Shia militias.

Those “excess deaths” wouldn’t happen if the US hadn’t invaded Middle East. Thus, it’s US fault. Generally speaking, calling US victims “excess deaths” tells something about American state of mind, though.

[deleted]

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#417

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

trasz wrote: post #394

torstenvl wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A country cannot be sued for causing a civilian death in war. Your speculation about motivations has no basis in reality. Additionally, the link you posted about deaths in Iraq does not say what you think it says.

Individual soldiers can, and US is very protective about its war criminals (see Iran Air 655). Almost every country cares about civilians more the US: by not waging wars.

[deleted]

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#418

Post by torstenvl » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

trasz wrote: post #393

torstenvl wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chelsea Manning wasn't tortured. The USG even paid for her gender reassignment surgery, and she was released early from her sentence. No reasonable person can call that torture. The claim isn't "there were a million excess deaths in a multiparty conflict," the claim is that the U.S. killed a million people. The vast majority of civilian killings were by ISIS and Shia militias.

Those “excess deaths” wouldn’t happen if the US hadn’t invaded Middle East. Thus, it’s US fault. Generally speaking, calling US victims “excess deaths” tells something about American state of mind, though.

That isn't how fault works. None of the misfortune I've suffered in my life would have happened if my father had never impregnated my mother, therefore it's all his fault and I'm his victim?

No. "But for" causation has zero moral import whatsoever. Stop spewing your ax-grindy propaganda.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#419

Post by torstenvl » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #337

torstenvl wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You're saying the opposite of Clausewitz. Clausewitz says that the goals of war are political; that political success in war relies on military success. I agree with that and think it's nearly self-evident. You're saying the opposite. You're saying military success relies on political success. That's an entirely different proposition and one I disagree with. > The only way for the U.S. military [to succeed] would…

That is not what I'm saying, nor what Clausewitz is saying. What is being said is that war is a means to an end, the end being political sucess. The goal of war is political, and war is successful if it achieves its goal. There is no separation in sucess. If you achieve political sucess, your war has been successful. If you achieve military sucess, that means your political goals are achieved, which means you have po…

> What is being said is that war is a means to an end, the end being political sucess. The goal of war is political, and war is successful if it achieves its goal.

That is not what you said. You said "the US military is incompetent."

Please do a better job of engaging honestly.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#420

Post by trasz » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 1:28 AM UTC

torstenvl wrote: post #418

trasz wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those “excess deaths” wouldn’t happen if the US hadn’t invaded Middle East. Thus, it’s US fault. Generally speaking, calling US victims “excess deaths” tells something about American state of mind, though.

That isn't how fault works. None of the misfortune I've suffered in my life would have happened if my father had never impregnated my mother, therefore it's all his fault and I'm his victim? No. "But for" causation has zero moral import whatsoever. Stop spewing your ax-grindy propaganda.

So essentially your claim is that invading a country is not the cause for subsequent million victims of said invasion.

You still don't see it, do you? You have been brainwashed into believing that war mongering is somehow not pure evil as long as it's done by US.