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Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

imperial.ac.uk

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Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#51

Post by wlesieutre »

eightysixfour wrote: post #48
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe is ... about how recently you received your last shot .. not because it is really any different than my 2nd shot. No. That appears not be the situation. Immunity shortly after the thirds shot is substantially higher than shortly after the second https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1460191035531878405 https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1458026852249919490

I have seen speculation that the second dose was given too quickly.

I wonder if that's a factor in the Pfizer/BioNTech vs Moderna performance. Moderna had a higher dosage, but it was also 4 weeks between doses instead of 3.

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#52

Post by stavros »

teh_infallible wrote: post #33
sdeframond wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other industries they call this "sales": getting rid of current perishable stock before buying fresh one. It's there, we might as well use it.

I was going to call it “marketing.” I am amazed to see people discuss what are essentially the marketing claims of a corrupt industry as if they had scientific validity. Substitute the word “immunity” with “blockchain” or “Artificial Intelligence” and maybe more people would see through it.

> Omicron largely evades artificial intelligence from past infection or two vaccine doses according to Imperial's latest report.

Hmm, still nothing.

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#53

Post by thinkharderdev »

robbmorganf wrote: post #12

Does anyone understand why a third dose of the same vaccine improves immunity to Omicron? I'm willing to believe the empirical evidence that boosters make a meaningful difference, but I can't figure out intuitively why the same mRNA a third time helps to address this new spike.

From what I understand it is about affinity maturation. Basically, when you get an initial vaccine (or infection) your immune system learns how to recognize the antigen (the virus spike protein) and produces a bunch of antibodies to recognize it. But your immune system also preserves the spike protein in antigen presenting cells so it can continue to produce antibodies to recognize more features of the spike protein. Over time, your immune system learns how to produce a broader range of antibodies that are (in aggregate) more likely to recognize partially mutated versions of the antigen. That's the affinity maturation part.

So when you get a booster (or a breakthrough infection) your immune system kicks into gear again but now it produces a broader range of antibodies. In addition the number of antibodies produced from the booster is quantitatively much larger than from the first vaccine. So with a booster you end up with more antibodies but also a larger variety of antibodies that can recognize different features of the spike protein (including features that are consistent between variants).

That's my understand at least but I am not an immunologist.

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#54

Post by bellyfullofbac »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #7
jeidz wrote: post #4

If it evades immunity from past infection isn’t it a different virus in the practical sense?

Well, since the booster seems to protect, no? I am hoping that Omicron will boost immunity versus delta while being more mild. This makes me suspect that this will be the case: https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/omicron-dominant-was... "Even though there have been practically no cases of clinical infection, wastewater samples show that the new omicron variant is now the dominant strain of COVID-19 in the Florida…

I wonder if they saw more traces from the theme park wastewater...

Business idea: device that you plug to your home wastewater output, scans it, and reports to you anything interesting.

Of course it'd need to be connected to the cloud and have a stupid subscription fee. /s . At least then "Internet of Shit" will apply to the name non-sarcastically.

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#55

Post by sdeframond »

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #36
sdeframond wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other industries they call this "sales": getting rid of current perishable stock before buying fresh one. It's there, we might as well use it.

You really think the CDC and other govt and NGO organizations, as an international coordinated group effort, are in bed with pharma companies, plotting with them to falsify data and craft false recommendations, just so those farma companies can make more $$? I mean, I actually do think that pharma companies are vile, have successfully gained significant regulatory capture, and can influence policy through their own m…

I just think we would rather use the doses already produced before they spoil than wait for the new ones.

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#56

Post by koshergweilo »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #11
drewg123 wrote: post #8

From the article: this translates into vaccine effectiveness estimates against symptomatic Omicron infection of between 0% and 20% after two doses, and between 55% and 80% after a booster dose What I'm wondering is: Is this due to the timing of a booster, since most boosters have been given in the last few months? Or is there some kind of cumulative impact on the immune system? Eg, If I got a booster early, am I stil…

Maybe recency is not the sole factor: https://i.imgur.com/OzznuBa.png edit: source: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.14.21267769v...

No one is going to trust a random imgur link. Source or it didn't happen

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#57

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

eightysixfour wrote: post #48
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe is ... about how recently you received your last shot .. not because it is really any different than my 2nd shot. No. That appears not be the situation. Immunity shortly after the thirds shot is substantially higher than shortly after the second https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1460191035531878405 https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1458026852249919490

I have seen speculation that the second dose was given too quickly.

Firstly, YMMV, different people got different separations of different vaccines. The US doing Pfizer 3 weeks apart was the fastest. The UK gave out AZ and Pfizer. First at a 12 week interval, then shortened to 8 weeks

The question is: too quickly for what? My understanding is that

a) If the goal was optimal immunity in the longer term then yes, it might be overly quick.

b) But if the goal was fighting the raging pandemic that needed urgent actions right now as "the house is on fire", and you have a lot of vaccine doses, then no, maybe not too fast.

Finally, a lot of vaccine courses require more than 2 doses, separated by more than a couple of months. UK standard childhood vaccination schedule for instance. "Polio" is in there 5 times. Polio is a memory, but only because because to this day they don't mess around with vaccinating against it

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#59

Post by [deleted] »

afterburner wrote: post #25
robbmorganf wrote: post #12

Does anyone understand why a third dose of the same vaccine improves immunity to Omicron? I'm willing to believe the empirical evidence that boosters make a meaningful difference, but I can't figure out intuitively why the same mRNA a third time helps to address this new spike.

Because of the way your immune system works. Vaccines aren't medicine, they work by provoking an immune response. What happens after that immune response is triggered is way more complicated than just "molecule X get response Y", there are multiple stages of responses, and the deeper, longer span ones create a resilience against mutations as well. It is extremely common for a proper vaccination regimen to require mul…

[deleted]

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#60

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

wlesieutre wrote: post #51
eightysixfour wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen speculation that the second dose was given too quickly.

I wonder if that's a factor in the Pfizer/BioNTech vs Moderna performance. Moderna had a higher dosage, but it was also 4 weeks between doses instead of 3.

> but it was also 4 weeks between doses instead of 3.

YMMV. The UK gave out AZ and Pfizer. First at a 12 week interval, then shortened to 8 weeks.

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