Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show • Hacker News Board

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#101

Post by walterbell » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

willcipriano wrote: post #97

lithos wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this approach to explain some of antivax as well. Essentially big pharma has just finished up a massive campaign that was the opioid pandemic. Essentially there’s going to be a large correlation between people with jobs that get them injured and targeted for opioid use, and those people being right. Opioid addiction that comes from that targeting isn’t just a single victim thing, someone addicted to something…

Good point. If you are realtively young in certain parts of the country you are going to hear a lot more stories about pharma killing people (opioids) than saving them. Opioids killed most of my childhood friend group. Left many others passed out every day in their parents basement now into their 30s with no propects. All the pretentious late night comedian jokes and Twitter clapbacks in the world won't be able to tu…

There's a PDF collection of alleged vax injuries/deaths that's been growing since March 2021, now over 200 pages. If autopsies were performed on any of the listed cases, the claims could be challenged. Since these are based on news reports, the list is at least publicly available and could be analyzed by federal or state agencies. There's also a much larger tier of anecdotal injuries within friend and family networks, which never reached the media. Without data/evidence collection, narrative gaps will remain.

https://circleofmamas.com/health-news/compilation-of-covid-v...

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#102

Post by walterbell » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:01 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #95

waihtis wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This theory of "pandemic of the unvaccinated" can safely be dumped into the trashcan following that e.g. here in Finland we have a double vaccination rate of over 80% and yet the daily numbers are easily the highest of all time. It also follows that the advice and main rules given to avoid the pandemic aren't actually effective, and somewhat ironically, it would bode well to use scientific principles to re-evaluate t…

Vaccines never assured that would stop the transmission. Specially after being designed for different virus variants. They claimed that the effects would be much less severe, and would save lives. And in millions of cases [1] they delivered exactly what was promised. Finland had 1000 people killed. Sweden with 70% vaccinated had 15.000 deaths, so all points that vaccines really work. [1] There are a few debatable cas…

> Vaccines never assured that would stop the transmission. Specially after being designed for different virus variants.

People's experiences of vaccines like MMR lead them to assume otherwise.

CDC did not formally change the definition of vaccine until Sept 2021.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#103

Post by willcipriano » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

jktogjfnn wrote: post #43

JetAlone wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good question with a lot of observations that could be made... I'd say that out of concern for the (economic) consequences of harmful side effects, the choice not to get the jab is de-facto forcefully made for the stateless by the manufacturers + state. I wouldn't call this protection. As a stateless, your legal freedom (which I think ought to be inalienable) to get a particular medical product you might wan…

But think about how we got here. In US you can get 100 mil in liability damages per injured person in lawsuits, which doesn't make any sense when you consider that with that sum you could save thousands of lives (poor people, ...) So you could easily be made to pay 10 bil for causing vaccine damage to a 1000 people, while disregarding the hundred of millions the vaccine saved. Do you think that would be fair?

Without a vaccine mandate I can see your argument, however if you force people to take a drug you have decided to take ownership of the situation. In that case you are responsible for the outcome. If you don't want to be responsible for a choice, don't make it.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#104

Post by pas » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #37

pas wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously the situation is bad. The antivaxx bomb exploded and a significant chunk of the population has been hit by it. Now governments are trying to counteract that. (Twitter too.) Both usually have crude methods only.

I’m sure some time from now a different government won’t try to “counteract” some other threat with even more draconian measures. And it definitely can’t be the other side targeted next time. There’s nothing dangerous in giving unchecked power to the government to counteract “threats”.

I'm not saying what's happening is good. I'm stating it as a matter of fact. As you (cynically, but likely correctly) note that such authorizations tend to lead to very serious abuses of power. But it's also important to see that there are many countries on the planet that do exist with those draconian measures, without those getting abused. (Again, I'm not saying getting complacent about this is desirable. Quite the opposite.)

It's pretty much evident that real free speech can only exist in a society where basic needs are unconditionally guaranteed, and so on. ("I disagree, but I'd defend your right to say it." is great, as long as there is literally exactly zero probability that it might backfire on you. Because the moment there's a non-zero probability there's a non-zero chilling effect.)

There are, of course, various workarounds for these problems caused by a too oppressive/powerful majority, but the way to implement them start with letting go of the simple, but wrong idea that there free speech is simple and it can be simply free. (And similarly it'd be good to kill other useless idols like the "national security" one, that is routinely used to suppress speech. And then the "think of the children" one, which is again used to oppress, and so on.)

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#105

Post by Ekaros » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #52

waihtis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, but now we have two extra phenomena with the COVID vaccine: 1) Discussion about vaccine side effects, efficacy rates, etc. is being actively censored (e.g. Twitter's ridiculous post censorship policy) 2) Governments pushing for a mandatory vaccine If one doesn't think this creates a very dangerous precedent one does not understand history nor human nature at all.

Yes it’s a dangerous precedent. So we need to quantify the relative dangers. Hundreds of thousands, and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now, against a precedent that might be abused in future in theory. It depends how much confidence we have in democracy in America. The US had a debate and had elections even during the pandemic. Decisions about these issues are being made at state and f…

> and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now,

Millions? Where does that number come from?

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#106

Post by dkjaudyeqooe » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

native_samples wrote: post #87

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that vaccines don't affect transmission at all That is false. Stop spreading dangerous nonsense. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211124-vaccines-redu... https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-l...

You cite, I cite, we all cite ... https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7... ... but who's right? If vaccines really affected transmission a lot, we'd see it in drastically reduced case numbers. What we actually see is that post-vaccination case numbers reach record highs. That should be a pretty basic reality check on any claims that transmission is heavily affected. Either that, or you have to…

Citations are irrelevant, it's the preponderance of evidence.

You can deploy as many non-sequiturs and specious arguments in service of the view you cling to, but the evidence remains the same.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#107

Post by tomjen3 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 6:27 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #52

waihtis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, but now we have two extra phenomena with the COVID vaccine: 1) Discussion about vaccine side effects, efficacy rates, etc. is being actively censored (e.g. Twitter's ridiculous post censorship policy) 2) Governments pushing for a mandatory vaccine If one doesn't think this creates a very dangerous precedent one does not understand history nor human nature at all.

Yes it’s a dangerous precedent. So we need to quantify the relative dangers. Hundreds of thousands, and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now, against a precedent that might be abused in future in theory. It depends how much confidence we have in democracy in America. The US had a debate and had elections even during the pandemic. Decisions about these issues are being made at state and f…

>It depends how much confidence we have in democracy in America.

After Hunter Bidens laptop story got removed from everywhere, there can be no doubt that the only correct answer to to that question is negative infinity.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#108

Post by simonh » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

adevx wrote: post #79

simonh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, that’s the loss of life _with_ lockdowns, mass vaccinations, etc. we’ve successfully managed to limit the damage to much, much, much lower levels than it would have been otherwise. It’s been a huge success, compared to an unrestricted or minimally constrained propagation of the virus.

That's a huge assumption. Given how well Sweden has done with limited lockdowns [0] one could also jump to conclusions that lockdowns have prolonged and exacerbated a situation that would otherwise have fizzled out with herd immunity. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

The Swedish government regards the claim that they have not implemented lockdowns similar to many other countries as a myth:

>Swedish foreign minister Ann Linde said that the "so-called Swedish strategy" was one of many myths about Sweden, and described it as "absolutely false".

>...Remarks similar to Linde's have also been made by Lena Hallengren, Minister for Health and Social Affairs, who disagreed with the belief that Sweden had a radically different approach to the virus compared to other countries, saying she believed that there were only differences in two major regards: not shutting down schools, and not having regulations forcing people to remain in their homes.[161]

>Linde has also spoken out against reports of Swedes not practising social distancing, calling it another "myth" in the reporting about Sweden, and she said Sweden's combination of recommendations and legally binding measures had so far proven effective.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#109

Post by clairity » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

pas wrote: post #80

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, so many many lies, so many "science changing is a good thing" stuff (eg "masks are useless, wash your hands", and mask wearers being conspiracy theorists, to "mandatory masks" and antimaskers being the conspirac nutjobs), "just 14 more days", etc.... but they still want you to "trust them" now, with "this new thing".

The science was always uncertain, the policy flip-flop was understandable, the absolutely fubar'ed PR is the nightmare fuel. Masks work. That was not the question. How much they help is the question of science. The cost-benefit decision is the question of policy. How to communicate the changing policy should have been the PR question. The US and international agencies that set policies are not as science-driven as th…

> "Masks work. That was not the question."

no, 'masks work' is an extremely poor and politically-loaded statement (and as such, not a 'fact'). that phrase is meant to be thought-terminating, projecting false certainty, and curtly implies they work everywhere, all the time. instead, it should be something like 'masks are able to filter viable virus particles under the right conditions'.

that kind of distortionary perspective has been used to mandate wearing masks in public spaces, where they almost always do exactly no good at all (no additional benefit beyond normal human behavior and interaction), and neglects to mandate that we wear them around friends and family (social situations) where masks might potentially filter some live (viable) virus from warm exhalation and/or from close and prolonged inhalation by the uninfected.

as such, that usage/mandate is not for public health at all. it's political, for the individual, the reporter and the politician, to signal in-grouping and to apply counterproductive social pressure passive-aggressively (again, not to reduce spread, but to signal brainless obeisance).

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#110

Post by dang » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:18 PM UTC

jktogjfnn wrote: post #43

JetAlone wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good question with a lot of observations that could be made... I'd say that out of concern for the (economic) consequences of harmful side effects, the choice not to get the jab is de-facto forcefully made for the stateless by the manufacturers + state. I wouldn't call this protection. As a stateless, your legal freedom (which I think ought to be inalienable) to get a particular medical product you might wan…

But think about how we got here. In US you can get 100 mil in liability damages per injured person in lawsuits, which doesn't make any sense when you consider that with that sum you could save thousands of lives (poor people, ...) So you could easily be made to pay 10 bil for causing vaccine damage to a 1000 people, while disregarding the hundred of millions the vaccine saved. Do you think that would be fair?

Could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...