Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#401

Post by aa-jv » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

skinkestek wrote: post #391

aa-jv wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it is the West who creates this situation. It is the West that creates this situation: https://www.geoawesomeness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Ri... >Britains deal with Hitler. A deal with Russia These are not equivalent by any stretch. Putin is not Hitler.

> https://www.geoawesomeness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Ri... What am I supposed to read out of this that supports your argument? > These are not equivalent by any stretch. Putin is not Hitler. Absolutely true. Sadly it seems that one similarity is that both of them - and others as well - didn't/doesn't respect treaties, agreements or what I think of as basic expectations of decency. For this reason I voice my cl…

>What am I supposed to read out of this that supports your argument?

Which country is having its territorial sovereignty threatened by the encroachment of hostile states strategically positioning nuclear weapons within strike distance? Which country actually belongs in the region, and which are setting up remote bases from which to operate, far, far from home?

If you don't think NATO aggression is a reality that Russia must deal with, there's not much point in further discussion. Only one side in this argument has a long history of committing war crimes and further crimes against humanity, for the last twenty years ..

>doesn't respect treaties, agreements

This is the biggest problem that Russia has with NATO and its puppet states: they don't respect treaties or agreements. Lets next discuss the Minsk Protocol and what Ukraine has done to render its participation utterly useless and not worthy of any respect, whatsoever ...

>NATO .. don't overstep our boundaries

That horse has left the barn, long ago. It is very clear to those of us that live in the region that NATO is willing to step all over the sovereignty of other nations in an attempt to encircle Russia. Your trust in NATO is clearly either a) uninformed, or b) utterly misguided.

>Exercise on the Ukrainian border

.. on the RUSSIAN side of the border. Nothing at all wrong with that, one bit.

> sending advanced gear to troublemakers

ahem It is the USA actively arming Ukrainian fascists, yo.

> meddling like USA > also occupying

Not at anywhere near the scale of the USA, sir. And if you think this is equivalent, then good day to you - we have nothing else to discuss.

The USA is the #1 violator of human rights and committer of war crimes in the world today. Your attention would be better directed towards the calls for justice for America's war crimes victims and the imprisonment of its numerous war criminals.

Only then can the West find the moral authority to do anything about Russia's perceived acts.

Until then, these arguments are specious at best, or facetious in whole.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#402

Post by bananabernhard » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 1:57 PM UTC

aa-jv wrote: post #390

bananabernhard wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] There are two major parties in Germany who oppose NATO membership: The far-right AfD and the left to far-left Linke. They have less than 20% of the national vote together. In 2019 there were 54% of Germans in favor of the NATO membership and 13% opposed it. [1] Can't talk for the other countries, but given that you have no sources other than "I heard someone say that", I'm not inclined to believe it…

Besides the media, who else do you think could be relied on to gain an opinion on this issue? My German friends and associates - I don't know a single German, after 15 years of living in and around Germany and Austria, who wants US bases in Germany any more - in fact the majority of 'common people' that I know, want the USA to remove all of their bases from Europe, take their war machines, and go home. From outside t…

I think the fact that the parties that are in favor of leaving NATO have very little political relevance speaks for itself. And my anecdotal evidence after living my entire live in Germany is, that most people just don't care, and even the people that care and like NATO outnumber the ones that hate them. It's just my experience though. And if you're so deep into conspiracies, that your only explanation is that "the media" faked the poll (and possibly even the election, wtf) then I don't think there is any value in continuing this discussion.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#403

Post by Nasreddin_Hodja » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

aurizon wrote: post #135

wongarsu wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has a military budget of 60bn, Germany and France spend 52bn each. Within the EU they are on home turf, with existing rail and road infrastructure. The EU isn't equipped to fight in Russia or to fight a nuclear war (even though France has nukes), but I don't see why the EU shouldn't be able to defend it's own territory in a conventional war.

Russian budgeted costs are far higher in 'cross border equalisation' terms than 60 billion - Russia probably get 2-3 times as much purchasing power. If Ukraine is attacked they will fight to the death - they know what life under Russia was like and the killings. In addition, almost all cross border shipments of all kinds to Russia will stop, as the USA/EU will go to maximum embargo state. China will supply stuff by r…

> If Ukraine is attacked they will fight to the death

They will not. They gave up Crimea almost without fight. Many people at Ukraine are russian speaking and many of them don't mind becoming a part of Russia, just like Criemea people. Just compare with Chechen war in 90's.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#404

Post by Nasreddin_Hodja » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #190

abcd_f wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia doesn’t give a fuck about Ukraine for as long as it’s not in Nato. Just like the US didn’t like Russian military presence on Cuba, they don’t want the US presence in Ukraine. It’s all fundamentally dead simple. Russia views Ukraine as a buffer country between itself and the West and will do anything to keep it that way.

> Russia doesn’t give a fuck about Ukraine They should probably stop invading more and more of it over time, then.

> They should probably stop invading more and more of it over time, then.

They should do it for the sake of security of Europe. Ukraine is not capable of controlling "own" territory.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#405

Post by hypertele-Xii » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 12:14 AM UTC

varjag wrote: post #398

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet Finns, spectacularily outnumbered, held off Russian invasion anyway with machine guns and German drugs.

FSVO held off. All Finnish territory claimed by USSR at the beginning of the conflict was in the end annexed and remains so to this day.

Certainly kept more than half the country. Here's hoping Ukraine prevails as well.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#406

Post by bee_rider » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 1:22 AM UTC

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #396

bee_rider wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's paradoxical at all. This is right in the EU's backyard. If it were to heat up they'd actually have to deal with things like refugees and the possibility of war spreading to their members. They probably also want to be very explicit about their (lack of) obligations in this case, I mean people are already acting as if this calls into question how steadfast they'll be in defense of eastern EU membe…

We have two options. First, Putin is bluffing. This is what most people believe (and hope). In this case giving Ukraine more weapons won't hurt anyone. Option two is that he is really planning some offensive action this winter. In this case sending weapons to Ukraine could help in slowing the Russians down. It could also help in decimating their army - if they unmask as a ruthless aggressor, it is in the interest of…

There are countless options.

Another option is that both the EU and Putin know Russia does not have the conventional strength to attack the EU, but does have the manpower to attack other unaligned countries. And so, the EU has decided to prioritize their other interests over standing up to Russia.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#407

Post by xtracto » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 3:30 AM UTC

emptysongglass wrote: post #392

xtracto wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great read thank you. As someone completely disinterested in any of the affected parties, it sometimes gets annoying how loud is the "pro-American" / "Anti Russian" propaganda in the internet. It's always "America is good, Russia/China/Whoever else is bad" as if the USA was full of saints. Truth is, every country and government is willing to protect their interests, and it has been historically proved that the USA is…

> It's always "America is good, Russia/China/Whoever else is bad" as if the USA was full of saints. The world is not some grand scale intended to be balanced. No one argues the USA is full of saints. Whether the USA is full of saints or not is immaterial to Russia/China being "bad". The truth is, a world Order led by the United States looks a lot kinder than a world led by Russian or Chinese regimes. Resorting to fal…

>The truth is, a world Order led by the United States looks a lot kinder than a world led by Russian or Chinese regimes

But that is a preconception you have due to your background. A world order the China way may mean no more narcos and narco killing in my country, no more each-to-its-own culture that is permeating my country.

You have to be aware that in my country we like socialism. We like social healthcare, social help for people. A lot of people believe that it's wrong that 10% of the people has 90% of the wealth.

Thing is, living in a bubble prevents people to see that there is more than what we learn from our country and its social constructs.

I was fortunate to live in 3 very different countries for a long time. It allowed me to both value watch I had at home but also to see other ways to do things. Again the narrative of "russia china bad" is a subjective idea that is given to us by our society.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#408

Post by landemva » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #307

scottLobster wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is less about NATO deployments and more the will of NATO leadership to go to war with Russia over its more minor members. I hate to say it but the Afghanistan withdrawal really showed what happens when Americans stop giving a shit, and they probably don't give that much of a shit about Latvia. Who's going to step into that gap for NATO? Poland recently ran a military exercise simulating a war with Russia…

> hate to say it but the Afghanistan withdrawal really showed what happens when Americans stop giving a shit America as a country never really gave a shit about Afghanistan. Nobody was standing in a ration line or anything. The military was at war, and that should actually give you confidence because if America can sustain a 20-year war in Afghanistan which turned out to be completely pointless while also fighting a…

USA would do well to also withdraw from NATO. Let Europe pay for it's own defense. Stop meddling.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#409

Post by landemva » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

ivan_gammel wrote: post #304

scottLobster wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, you're assuming the US gives a shit. The Cold War ended a while ago, the last Cold War generation is aging into retirement. Europe/Russia is now a secondary concern in the US next to China. NATO blowing up would destroy American diplomatic credibility, but we've already kinda done that in multiple ways over the last few years, and our military is still more than potent enough to look after our interests.…

USA will have to give a shit for one reason: the war against Baltics or Poland is the war against whole Europe. Germany will not stay away and observe, as will not do France or Italy. EU is the largest trade partner of USA, the biggest market for its exports etc. Regardless of the strategic games in the Pacific, USA cannot afford to lose it or to allow it to be devastated by a big war.

I am all for international trade. But can we let the European countries grow up and provide their own defense? USA can't really afford another decade of aggressive military meddling. Deficits are running away from any plausibly realistic plan to balance spending and tax receipts, so we are economically killing our future.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#410

Post by emptysongglass » Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 6:23 AM UTC

xtracto wrote: post #407

emptysongglass wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's always "America is good, Russia/China/Whoever else is bad" as if the USA was full of saints. The world is not some grand scale intended to be balanced. No one argues the USA is full of saints. Whether the USA is full of saints or not is immaterial to Russia/China being "bad". The truth is, a world Order led by the United States looks a lot kinder than a world led by Russian or Chinese regimes. Resorting to fal…

>The truth is, a world Order led by the United States looks a lot kinder than a world led by Russian or Chinese regimes But that is a preconception you have due to your background. A world order the China way may mean no more narcos and narco killing in my country, no more each-to-its-own culture that is permeating my country. You have to be aware that in my country we like socialism. We like social healthcare, socia…

> Again the narrative of "russia china bad" is a subjective idea that is given to us by our society.

I have already outlined a few examples for why it is not. If you insist on this damaging false equivalence, and for a taste of something on your continent, you need only look to the illegal violation of the territorial waters of Argentina by Chinese fishing vessels en masse. That is happening today.

The ruthless genocide of the Uyghur people is happening today. The illegal seizure of Hong Kong happened last year. I have personal experience here as a woman I grew close to openly wept for the loss of her freedoms happening in real time.

The Great Leap Forward killed between 13 and 55 million people of which it is estimated at least 2.5 million of these deaths were caused by beatings, tortures, or summary executions. Your vaunted CCP denies and distorts all of these events.

> You have to be aware that in my country we like socialism. We like social healthcare, social help for people. A lot of people believe that it's wrong that 10% of the people has 90% of the wealth.

I live in Denmark. I am quite familiar with socialized healthcare. Denmark and the rest of the EU are good examples of the benefits of what sharing the wealth looks like. China and Russia are authoritarian superpowers who treat history as a story of convenience and you have fallen for it.