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Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

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Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#91
post #36
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously the situation is bad. The antivaxx bomb exploded and a significant chunk of the population has been hit by it. Now governments are trying to counteract that. (Twitter too.) Both usually have crude methods only.

This is not an antivaxx problem, this is a government/NGO ineptitude & trustworthiness problem. There's been a million fumbles and lies around the whole pandemic, making the quasistalinist approach to pandemic governance likely the number one catalyst of antivaxx stances.

I like this approach to explain some of antivax as well. Essentially big pharma has just finished up a massive campaign that was the opioid pandemic. Essentially there’s going to be a large correlation between people with jobs that get them injured and targeted for opioid use, and those people being right. Opioid addiction that comes from that targeting isn’t just a single victim thing, someone addicted to something as hard as opioids is going to affect entire families and likely extended families. It’s going to essentially feel like a massive economic and spiritual attack to the family, by pharmaceutical companies (after all the news that came out of that social pandemic). So it makes sense that the seeds for not trusting the medical system are there and in insanely rich fertilizer to grow by even groups previously seen as insane like antivax groups (seriously both sides of the isle used to mock those groups). The worst part is that the people taking a drink of that koolaid, are able to literally take their life experience and draw a completely sane line from A to B that Big Pharma shouldn’t be trusted.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#92
post #79
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, that’s the loss of life _with_ lockdowns, mass vaccinations, etc. we’ve successfully managed to limit the damage to much, much, much lower levels than it would have been otherwise. It’s been a huge success, compared to an unrestricted or minimally constrained propagation of the virus.

That's a huge assumption. Given how well Sweden has done with limited lockdowns [0] one could also jump to conclusions that lockdowns have prolonged and exacerbated a situation that would otherwise have fizzled out with herd immunity. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

Even Florida it seems these days

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#93
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no sterilising immunity. That's a gross oversimplification of the incredibly complex thing that the immune system is. Immune response isn't linear. Likewise, viral reproduction isn't linear. They're not even constant within the same tissue. So whatever happens will depend on the virus, on the viral load, where it appears, and previous type and kind of immunity, and the speed of that immune response. Fun fact:…

Let's look at the latest UK data, https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... > To the end of week 43 in 2021 (to 31 October 2021) 72,264 possible reinfections have been identified, of which 441 have been confirmed by identification of genetically distinct specimens. That is from a total of 7.9 million positive cases, i.e. reinfection rate is ~0.01% to 1%. That means at least 99% of Covid-recovere…

I think you're not looking at the numbers the way I do.

1. The closest to reality is probably the 70k figure, since the requirements for probable and confirmed are held to unusually high standards (sequencing of one or both samples).

2. The numbers have to be adjusted by date to make sense of them. That's a cumulative analysis of data since the beginning of the pandemic, meaning first infections are overrepresented because you have to have a first to have a second, and because most first infections require uninfected people and there are way more of those.

3. Page 20 shows reinfection rate was climbing along with first infections before widespread vaccination, and also that reinfection rate is receding as first infections climb lately. Statistically it's expected to grow as the previously infected population grows. This, if anything, displays that vaccination in previously infected individuals is effective at preventing reinfection.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#94
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at the latest UK data, https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... > To the end of week 43 in 2021 (to 31 October 2021) 72,264 possible reinfections have been identified, of which 441 have been confirmed by identification of genetically distinct specimens. That is from a total of 7.9 million positive cases, i.e. reinfection rate is ~0.01% to 1%. That means at least 99% of Covid-recovere…

I think you're not looking at the numbers the way I do. 1. The closest to reality is probably the 70k figure, since the requirements for probable and confirmed are held to unusually high standards (sequencing of one or both samples). 2. The numbers have to be adjusted by date to make sense of them. That's a cumulative analysis of data since the beginning of the pandemic, meaning first infections are overrepresented b…

Based on the latest report, what is your estimate for the % of UK people who have been reinfected?

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#95
post #77
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The advice and main rules were really clear from the start. Do 1) this, 2) this and 3) this. And were repeated millions of times from thousands of people in the whole planet. But some people didn't liked science and choose instead to go to bath masses, religious massive holidays and parties just to make a political point. Some people even put deliberately the live of other in risk, teared off their masks and spit in…

This theory of "pandemic of the unvaccinated" can safely be dumped into the trashcan following that e.g. here in Finland we have a double vaccination rate of over 80% and yet the daily numbers are easily the highest of all time. It also follows that the advice and main rules given to avoid the pandemic aren't actually effective, and somewhat ironically, it would bode well to use scientific principles to re-evaluate t…

Vaccines never assured that would stop the transmission. Specially after being designed for different virus variants.

They claimed that the effects would be much less severe, and would save lives. And in millions of cases [1] they delivered exactly what was promised. Finland had 1000 people killed. Sweden with 70% vaccinated had 15.000 deaths, so all points that vaccines really work.

[1] There are a few debatable cases, and I don't have any problem to discuss it, but the fact is that any treatment carry a small risk of being harmful for a particular genetic. People accept to take this risks all the time because the possible benefits worth it. Nobody says "we must stop treating cancer because chemotherapy has killed one in a 100 million people before".

Rules can't be effective if everybody do all that must do, but a bunch of morons playing cowbells came and spit you in the face (or into your hamburger) just for fun. Don't blame the people that made the rules for that. Is not their failure

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#96
post #95
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This theory of "pandemic of the unvaccinated" can safely be dumped into the trashcan following that e.g. here in Finland we have a double vaccination rate of over 80% and yet the daily numbers are easily the highest of all time. It also follows that the advice and main rules given to avoid the pandemic aren't actually effective, and somewhat ironically, it would bode well to use scientific principles to re-evaluate t…

Vaccines never assured that would stop the transmission. Specially after being designed for different virus variants. They claimed that the effects would be much less severe, and would save lives. And in millions of cases [1] they delivered exactly what was promised. Finland had 1000 people killed. Sweden with 70% vaccinated had 15.000 deaths, so all points that vaccines really work. [1] There are a few debatable cas…

They most certainly did run that message for awhile, see eg https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-21/pfizer-bi...

I will absolutely blame the people who use ineffective or dishonest methods to constrict my life without my consent, that is the price they pay to be in positions of power.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#97
post #91
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an antivaxx problem, this is a government/NGO ineptitude & trustworthiness problem. There's been a million fumbles and lies around the whole pandemic, making the quasistalinist approach to pandemic governance likely the number one catalyst of antivaxx stances.

I like this approach to explain some of antivax as well. Essentially big pharma has just finished up a massive campaign that was the opioid pandemic. Essentially there’s going to be a large correlation between people with jobs that get them injured and targeted for opioid use, and those people being right. Opioid addiction that comes from that targeting isn’t just a single victim thing, someone addicted to something…

Good point. If you are realtively young in certain parts of the country you are going to hear a lot more stories about pharma killing people (opioids) than saving them.

Opioids killed most of my childhood friend group. Left many others passed out every day in their parents basement now into their 30s with no propects.

All the pretentious late night comedian jokes and Twitter clapbacks in the world won't be able to turn that around, you need some empathy to reach people where they are.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good question with a lot of observations that could be made... I'd say that out of concern for the (economic) consequences of harmful side effects, the choice not to get the jab is de-facto forcefully made for the stateless by the manufacturers + state. I wouldn't call this protection. As a stateless, your legal freedom (which I think ought to be inalienable) to get a particular medical product you might wan…

But think about how we got here. In US you can get 100 mil in liability damages per injured person in lawsuits, which doesn't make any sense when you consider that with that sum you could save thousands of lives (poor people, ...) So you could easily be made to pay 10 bil for causing vaccine damage to a 1000 people, while disregarding the hundred of millions the vaccine saved. Do you think that would be fair?

I'd have to ask, do liability damages have to be 100 mil per person? Why can't they be significantly less, IE more commensurate to a reasonable (surely never 100% accurate) assessment of the rough economic value of damages actually inflicted?

If we cannot save millions of lives with meds without the following drawbacks:

    -Inadequate recourse for many of those suffering harmful side effects.

    -The effective re-distribution of the people's wealth to the harmed individual to spackle over the damage should harmful effects occur.

    -Infringing on the rights of human beings to prevent them from taking medical procedures they want to preserve corporate bottom lines.
Then beyond it being fair for a vaccine company to go under, I believe it would be just for the entire legal and civic system to collapse to be rebuilt by a structure that respects both human liberty and dignity. I believe it's a cycle that will happen again and again, every time, until we get it right and can finally keep millions of people safe enough to living meaningful enough lives without trampling their rights and without encouraging them to become too weak to preserve them. And further, I don't think we're ever actually going to get it right as a species, so things like this are going to happen, once in a long lifetime.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#99
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cherry-picking one out of a huge number of tiny groups (girls under 25 from Slovenia) is the hallmark of bad science. This is completely unsuitable for a good risk/benefit analysis.

In the whole And the mandates? If you're a 75yo pensioner, basically nothing has changed for you... curfew (back then) didn't affect you, because you're asleep, closed bars after 10pm the same, you don't go to shopping centers and restaurants, and normal grocery stores and pharmacies don't require testing or vaccinations... so you're basically living your life as normal. And the So we're basically keeping parts of th…

> Just requiring vaccinations to withdraw your pension

Agreed.

(Un)fortunately(?) society is not pure utilitarian. The mandates mostly protect the elderly. It seems the power structure came to the conclusion that it wants to protect them even if they don't care.

Folks love their grannies unconditionally it seems.

> Nightclubs closed totally.

Come to Budapest!

...

> In the whole https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-01/covid-...

It seems you are much more lucky than the US.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#100
post #27
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, but now we have two extra phenomena with the COVID vaccine: 1) Discussion about vaccine side effects, efficacy rates, etc. is being actively censored (e.g. Twitter's ridiculous post censorship policy) 2) Governments pushing for a mandatory vaccine If one doesn't think this creates a very dangerous precedent one does not understand history nor human nature at all.

Obviously the situation is bad. The antivaxx bomb exploded and a significant chunk of the population has been hit by it. Now governments are trying to counteract that. (Twitter too.) Both usually have crude methods only.

Here's a good overview: https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/status/14221815441611284...
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