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Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

reuters.com

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Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#61

Post by lmm »

walterbell wrote: post #3

> Many COVID-19 vaccine manufacturers have required that countries indemnify them for any adverse events suffered by individuals as a result of the vaccines, the United Nations says. Where governments are not in control, that is not possible. The concerns affect people, such as those displaced by the Myanmar, Afghanistan and Ethiopian crises, who are beyond the reach of national governments' vaccination schemes. Stat…

Stateless people are (generally) difficult for governments to impose on but have little governmental support. I'd say it tends to be a negative on net, though I guess that depends on your views on government in general.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#62

Post by fer »

nl wrote: post #45
landemva wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have talked to my Dr. 'you're still better off having the jab.' You are not my Dr. Supposedly vaccine reporting of harm is about 1%, though it would seem to be difficult to verify if it is 1% or 3%. 52 dead infants have been reported. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/baby-of-fully-vaccinated-m... It is not better, and not for 'all'.

> vaccine reporting of harm is about 1% What on earth is that piece of random rumourmongering based on? I felt horrible for ~24 hours after my second Pfizer shot. If that counts as hard then sure, 1% is believable. If it is actually harmful side effects than that is total nonsense. 1% is a huge, huge number of people.

It's based on antivax nonsense. Now he edited and linked to a site (which is banned everywhere in social media precisely for spreading COVID-19 misinformation) that takes raw data from VAERS at face value without any adjustment for prevalence or comorbidities.

They could as well link vaccine shots to trampoline accidents if only VAERS collected such data.

I'm all for open data, but antivaxxers without the minimal understanding of statistics extrapolating VAERS data makes me wonder if it's a good idea.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#63

Post by GoblinSlayer »

simonh wrote: post #52
waihtis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, but now we have two extra phenomena with the COVID vaccine: 1) Discussion about vaccine side effects, efficacy rates, etc. is being actively censored (e.g. Twitter's ridiculous post censorship policy) 2) Governments pushing for a mandatory vaccine If one doesn't think this creates a very dangerous precedent one does not understand history nor human nature at all.

Yes it’s a dangerous precedent. So we need to quantify the relative dangers. Hundreds of thousands, and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now, against a precedent that might be abused in future in theory. It depends how much confidence we have in democracy in America. The US had a debate and had elections even during the pandemic. Decisions about these issues are being made at state and f…

>informed by broad and local public opinion

Does it happen with censorship?

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#64

Post by dkjaudyeqooe »

native_samples wrote: post #42
dmz73 wrote: post #10

Governments are also indemnifying the people who do not want to get the vaccines and are spreading covid through their behavior (no masks, not distancing, no isolating). It would be interesting to see what would happen if families of people that die from covid-19 in coming months/years bring a negligent homicide lawsuits against some of the prominent advocates of the above mentioned behavior.

Given that vaccines don't affect transmission at all, but do suppress symptoms, any such lawsuits would run in the other direction - people who can't take the vaccines due to allergies etc suing people who did, on the grounds that they knew or should have known that they'd become invisible spreaders and dangerous to those who couldn't take vaccines. But in reality no sensible court would allow such arguments in eithe…

> Given that vaccines don't affect transmission at all

That is false. Stop spreading dangerous nonsense.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211124-vaccines-redu...

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-l...

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#65

Post by reindeer76 »

simonh wrote: post #60
reindeer76 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hundreds of thousands, and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now whose average age is greater than the life expectancy. But sure, let's discard our free society to prolong their lives by a bit. If history tells us anything, it's that free society is a stable attractor, so I'm sure we'll get it back in no time, right guys?

The analysis on years of life lost, including reduced life expectancy in those with long covid, has actually been done. >Conclusion: More than 28 million excess years of life were lost in 2020 in 31 countries, with a higher rate in men than women. Yes the chances of young people dying is individually very low, and gets tiny for the very young, but for example in Brazil it’s estimated that about 500 babies died due to…

28 million years of life lost in 31 countries whose population appears to add up to over 1 billion people.

So what are we talking about here, maybe like 2 weeks each? Which is optimistic -- because personally I believe most of the restrictions have a very small effect. Roughly that many people were going to die anyway, whether we did Sweden's approach or Austria's approach or anywhere in between.

Well - good god, I'm really looking forward to those extra 2 weeks of my life. They will be amazing. It will definitely make up for spending my entire youth, and possibly my entire life, in a hellish surveillance state where you aren't allowed to go to school or see your family and you have to show your papers to enter a restaurant. SO WORTH IT, right?

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#66

Post by libertine »

simonh wrote: post #56
libertine wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each contract has it's own terms, one of the cause for delays within the EU was due to some of those legal terms. USA and UK waved a lot of responsibilities. If it's shared liability, for example, in the EU it would be both EU and Pfizer that would back this up.

> USA and UK waved a lot of responsibilities. Brit here. I’m not intending to be argumentative, you’re right, but I’d prefer to put it a bit differently. The British government chose to take on responsibility for ordering and using the vaccines. We did our testing, contracted the drug companies to do a job to standards we set, and paid them for it. If a mistake was made, it’s on us. I have no problem with that. Now,…

I don't doubt the intentions, to be honest this is a chip on the shoulder that I have from that period.

Back then I tried to wrap my head around the whole delays of vaccines, when some propaganda were saying that the EU was being "cheap" and bargaining for cents, costing time, with the famous Boris quote, paraphrasing, "we have a better deal".

Only to find out that one of the major setbacks that caused the delay was in fact liability terms.

The EU wanted to share liability so that pharma was not completely off the hook, and had some skin in the game - and I'm fine with this decision, even it costed some weeks of delay.

I'm also fine with USA and UK decisions, it's just the framing and propaganda that was despicable... it wasn't a better deal, just different terms and demands.

I think this whole coronavirus period made me sick of politics.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#67

Post by ajsnigrutin »

waihtis wrote: post #36
pas wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously the situation is bad. The antivaxx bomb exploded and a significant chunk of the population has been hit by it. Now governments are trying to counteract that. (Twitter too.) Both usually have crude methods only.

This is not an antivaxx problem, this is a government/NGO ineptitude & trustworthiness problem. There's been a million fumbles and lies around the whole pandemic, making the quasistalinist approach to pandemic governance likely the number one catalyst of antivaxx stances.

Yep, so many many lies, so many "science changing is a good thing" stuff (eg "masks are useless, wash your hands", and mask wearers being conspiracy theorists, to "mandatory masks" and antimaskers being the conspirac nutjobs), "just 14 more days", etc.... but they still want you to "trust them" now, with "this new thing".

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#68

Post by walterbell »

lmm wrote: post #61
walterbell wrote: post #3

> Many COVID-19 vaccine manufacturers have required that countries indemnify them for any adverse events suffered by individuals as a result of the vaccines, the United Nations says. Where governments are not in control, that is not possible. The concerns affect people, such as those displaced by the Myanmar, Afghanistan and Ethiopian crises, who are beyond the reach of national governments' vaccination schemes. Stat…

Stateless people are (generally) difficult for governments to impose on but have little governmental support. I'd say it tends to be a negative on net, though I guess that depends on your views on government in general.

Perhaps they need the right lawyers or agents.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#69

Post by ajsnigrutin »

ajvs wrote: post #38
pas wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously the situation is bad. The antivaxx bomb exploded and a significant chunk of the population has been hit by it. Now governments are trying to counteract that. (Twitter too.) Both usually have crude methods only.

You say this like it's all due to misinformation. There are many VAERS and other self-reports in other countries, many studies and countless doctors also coming out against this. Overall I think vaccines have higher pros/cons (I'm vaccinated) but it's by no means cut and dry.

In slovenia (~2mio pop, ~1mio had covid), the current stats for girls under 25 is zero deaths due to covid and 1 death due to a vaccine (jannsen), and she only got vaccinated, because the alternative was a lot worse (paid tests every 48 hours, waiting in line, not being able to use a bus to go to the test site without the test, etc).

Yes, old unvaccinated people get fucked by covid, but 95% of the current measues in place only affect the young, because most old people don't go do bars after 10pm, don't go to clubs, don't even go to work anymore, etc.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#70

Post by waihtis »

simonh wrote: post #52
waihtis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, but now we have two extra phenomena with the COVID vaccine: 1) Discussion about vaccine side effects, efficacy rates, etc. is being actively censored (e.g. Twitter's ridiculous post censorship policy) 2) Governments pushing for a mandatory vaccine If one doesn't think this creates a very dangerous precedent one does not understand history nor human nature at all.

Yes it’s a dangerous precedent. So we need to quantify the relative dangers. Hundreds of thousands, and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now, against a precedent that might be abused in future in theory. It depends how much confidence we have in democracy in America. The US had a debate and had elections even during the pandemic. Decisions about these issues are being made at state and f…

What do I care about the US system as an European? I certainly haven't had a single chance to vote about any issue regarding COVID, these have all been top-down decisions.
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