Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

znak.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 428 posts

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#271

Post by oceanplexian »

arcticfox wrote: post #66
aa-jv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry. In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made wi…

> Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do I don't think Americans hate Russians at all, in my experience. Just Putin and a handful of oligarchs. > probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further sub…

> Some of these Russians just happen to carry Novichok or polonium and assassinate dissidents living in Europe, no big deal right?

In Western democracies we don't assassinate our dissidents, we simply throw them in a dark room for a few decades and throw away the key, like we are doing with Assange, and would have done with Snowden if someone like Putin wasn't around to put the smug hypocrisy, propaganda, and corruption on public display.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#272

Post by johnchristopher »

scottLobster wrote: post #197
underscore_ku wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are already NATO battalions in Latvia and Lithuania. Albania, the Czech Republic, Iceland, Italy, Montenegro, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain contribute to the Canadian-led battlegroup in Latvia; Belgium, the Czech Republic, Iceland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Norway provide contributions to the German-led battlegroup in Lithuania; France and Iceland contribute to the UK-led battlegroup in Estonia; an…

The question is less about NATO deployments and more the will of NATO leadership to go to war with Russia over its more minor members. I hate to say it but the Afghanistan withdrawal really showed what happens when Americans stop giving a shit, and they probably don't give that much of a shit about Latvia. Who's going to step into that gap for NATO? Poland recently ran a military exercise simulating a war with Russia…

How does MAD and France/UK nuclear arsenal fits into this ? It is my impression Russia (and maybe the EU but since I live in the EU I suppose we are the goodies) is waging an attrition small skirmishes war (don't really know what the end game is though).

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#273

Post by drran »

kofejnik wrote: post #245
drran wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when Ukraine forgot how to make nukes?

I don’t think Ukraine can get weapon grade plutonium

Ukraine has weapon-grade nuclear reactors, which produces weapon grade plutonium at scale.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#274

Post by scottLobster »

illuminati1911 wrote: post #254
scottLobster wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is less about NATO deployments and more the will of NATO leadership to go to war with Russia over its more minor members. I hate to say it but the Afghanistan withdrawal really showed what happens when Americans stop giving a shit, and they probably don't give that much of a shit about Latvia. Who's going to step into that gap for NATO? Poland recently ran a military exercise simulating a war with Russia…

”The question is less about NATO deployments and more the will of NATO leadership to go to war with Russia over its more minor members.” Not acting on this would completely destroy NATO and also permanently destroy US credibility on the world politics and in terms of military power. Realistically speaking NATO and US could not afford not to go to a war or at least armed conflict with Russia.

Like I said, you're assuming the US gives a shit. The Cold War ended a while ago, the last Cold War generation is aging into retirement. Europe/Russia is now a secondary concern in the US next to China. NATO blowing up would destroy American diplomatic credibility, but we've already kinda done that in multiple ways over the last few years, and our military is still more than potent enough to look after our interests.

Granted Russia is still seen as an adversary, but if Russia manages to quickly steamroll the Balkans/Poland/Ukraine and then challenges NATO to do something about it, I'm not sure there's the stomach for a bloody, protracted invasion of the continent to reclaim the lost members.

There's also a large swath of the US that sees NATO as a waste of US time/money, with members that largely don't pull their weight and are just mooching off the US, hell that was part of Trump's platform. And Secretary Gates under Obama complained, more diplomatically, about the same thing.

There's a substantial chance that a Russian invasion of any part of Europe would be seen as a "European problem" by a large chunk of Americans. None of this is to say I support that position, but that's where we're at IMO. America is largely turning inward for the first time since WWII, the question is whether Europe will figure that out before Putin does.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#275

Post by adrr »

abcd_f wrote: post #70
danlugo92 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only good outcome for the whole world is Putin and allies being ousted out of power and replaced by actual non-warmonger democrats. Imagine a future with Russia in the EU, best timeline. Nobody wants nuclear war, maybe some kind of super-sanctions would be the only recourse for the west, cut them off everything, and I mean everything.

Russia doesn’t give a fuck about Ukraine for as long as it’s not in Nato. Just like the US didn’t like Russian military presence on Cuba, they don’t want the US presence in Ukraine. It’s all fundamentally dead simple. Russia views Ukraine as a buffer country between itself and the West and will do anything to keep it that way.

Why invade Crimea? Ukraine has two choices now, join nato or develop nukes and ICBMs.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#276

Post by drran »

aa-jv wrote: post #268
drran wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name these countries, please?

Germans would like to have their country back and kick NATO out. Serbians, Hungarians, Slovakians, Czechians, Slovenians .. even my colleagues in Kosovo are sick of Americas' shit. The reason is, they don't live behind an iron curtain of censorship of America's crimes against humanity, as most Americans/Western Europeans do.

I have relatives in Slovakia. Never heard anything about NATO from them. Can you point out where are you finding that?

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#277

Post by me_me_me »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #232
me_me_me wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will eventually settle and return back to Ukraine > as more and more countries recognize Crimea as part of Russia. What? Crimea will return to Ukraine as more countries recognise Crimea as Russian territory? > It will eventually settle and return back to Ukraine Crimea will never return to Ukraine, Russia historically needs port that doesn't freeze over winter. Now that Ukraine is looking towards EU/Nato and Rus…

No, you misread it. I did not say that Crimea will be returned.

I see now, sorry for misunderstanding.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#278

Post by retrac »

qwytw wrote: post #221
scottLobster wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is less about NATO deployments and more the will of NATO leadership to go to war with Russia over its more minor members. I hate to say it but the Afghanistan withdrawal really showed what happens when Americans stop giving a shit, and they probably don't give that much of a shit about Latvia. Who's going to step into that gap for NATO? Poland recently ran a military exercise simulating a war with Russia…

What rational reason would Russia have to invade the Baltic States (or even for example Poland)? Even in best case scenario if the west does not directly intervene, they would get an additional few million people almost all of whom absolutely don't want to live in Russia and whom Russia could barely afford to police and a lot of additional economic sanctions. Also we're totally ignoring the internal political fallout…

Wars usually seem rational to the people starting them. Conceivably attainable goals for short- or medium- term political purposes. But war has a way of escalating, dragging the participants along to a fate none of them really control.

As a hypothetical -- Russia does invade Ukraine and the Western forces offer substantial but indirect military support. Russia strikes at a supporting NATO military installation just metres over the border in a NATO country, on the assumption that NATO will not respond to that as an Article 5 attack on their territory. But they assume wrong.

Consider how the Japanese assumed the Americans would be amenable to sue for peace after Pearl Harbor at some point. They had a mental model where it was risky, yes, but rational. But they deeply misunderstood their enemy. History is full of this pattern.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#279

Post by petesergeant »

scottLobster wrote: post #197
underscore_ku wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are already NATO battalions in Latvia and Lithuania. Albania, the Czech Republic, Iceland, Italy, Montenegro, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain contribute to the Canadian-led battlegroup in Latvia; Belgium, the Czech Republic, Iceland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Norway provide contributions to the German-led battlegroup in Lithuania; France and Iceland contribute to the UK-led battlegroup in Estonia; an…

The question is less about NATO deployments and more the will of NATO leadership to go to war with Russia over its more minor members. I hate to say it but the Afghanistan withdrawal really showed what happens when Americans stop giving a shit, and they probably don't give that much of a shit about Latvia. Who's going to step into that gap for NATO? Poland recently ran a military exercise simulating a war with Russia…

> The question is less about NATO deployments and more the will of NATO leadership to go to war with Russia over its more minor members

This is the point of putting NATO troops in the country: if Chad from Nebraska and Juan from Madrid get shot by Boris it’ll significantly alter public/political opinion much more than if Igor gets shot by Boris.

They put these troops in the Baltics so that the Russians would end up shooting kids from a wide range of influential NATO partners.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#280

Post by rectang »

scottLobster wrote: post #197
underscore_ku wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are already NATO battalions in Latvia and Lithuania. Albania, the Czech Republic, Iceland, Italy, Montenegro, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain contribute to the Canadian-led battlegroup in Latvia; Belgium, the Czech Republic, Iceland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Norway provide contributions to the German-led battlegroup in Lithuania; France and Iceland contribute to the UK-led battlegroup in Estonia; an…

The question is less about NATO deployments and more the will of NATO leadership to go to war with Russia over its more minor members. I hate to say it but the Afghanistan withdrawal really showed what happens when Americans stop giving a shit, and they probably don't give that much of a shit about Latvia. Who's going to step into that gap for NATO? Poland recently ran a military exercise simulating a war with Russia…

> I hate to say it but the Afghanistan withdrawal really showed what happens when Americans stop giving a shit, and they probably don't give that much of a shit about Latvia.

The US is facing severe internal crises. It's weakening the country's ability to conduct a consistent foreign policy.

(I'm deliberately not saying what the crises are, because there is pitched disagreement about that. The point is that no matter what, infighting is hampering foreign policy.)

Post reply on HN