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Technorealism (1998)

technorealism.org

11–20 of 51 posts

Re: Technorealism (1998)

#11
post #5

Most of those statements are really silly. How do those people got to think and make claims like they have some authority over those issues?

One of the values of the Internet generally strongly endorsed by the Technorealists, techno-optimists, and techo-pessimists (or neo-Luddites) is that the Internet should be a forum for free expression especially of minority views.

Which is precisely what they are doing: freely expressing what at the time was a distinctly minority view.

For a list of signatories, see: https://www.technorealism.org/faq.html

You'll have to use the Wayback Machine on many of those links, though HN readers who've followed this debate should recognise at least some names. I've highlighted a few in an earlier comment.

Several (and perhaps most) of the signatories have written books (either before or after the launch of Technorealism), and/or articles in the tech or general press.

Re: Technorealism (1998)

#12
post #10

Note that the page and site material was first published in 1998, though it's been updated since. Dating the submission is somewhat complicated in this context.

archive.org has a pretty good collection of snapshots for this site, going back to Dec 1998 (I'm guessing ~6 months after it was first published based on the Mar 12, 1998 date on the site). https://web.archive.org/web/19981212033307/https://www.techn... The bullet points are exactly the same 24 years later, but I didn't check to confirm that the text under the bullet points is the same.

I'm largely going off the copyright notice at the bottom of the page. I wasn't confident enough to drop the "1998" tag on the story itself, and thought I'd leave that to the mod team to assess. I did feel it was worth mentioning in a comment to acknowledge ...

Re: Technorealism (1998)

#13
> 6. Information wants to be protected.

It's true that cyberspace and other recent developments are challenging our copyright laws and frameworks for protecting intellectual property. The answer, though, is not to scrap existing statutes and principles. Instead, we must update old laws and interpretations so that information receives roughly the same protection it did in the context of old media. The goal is the same: to give authors sufficient control over their work so that they have an incentive to create, while maintaining the right of the public to make fair use of that information. In neither context does information want "to be free." Rather, it needs to be protected.

What I think this misses is that the progress of technology has it made impossible to go back to the status quo 40 years ago. Copyright seems like a reasonable middle-ground if works are mostly published on physical media which you can own, play whenever you want or even sell of give away - but which are relatively rarely copied.

In today's world, that option is gone - instead, we have two opposite extremes:

One is anarchy, in which a popular work will almost instantly be pirated and distributed all across the world

The other is DRM and complete control, in which the consumer does not own anything except an ephemeral license to consume a work. But the rights-holder can suddenly control exactly who may consume the work, when, how often, under which circumstances, what the may or may not otherwise do with the work, etc - and all those circumstances may change at a moment's notice. In extreme cases, the rights-holder may even revoke the license and effectively erase all copies of their work at once.

Re: Technorealism (1998)

#14
I agree with everything except 5. I don't see why you can't replace the majority of teaching with automation. There's the aspect of learning social interaction, but that's among the kids themselves to figure out. The teacher doesn't have to be a literal person.

Re: Technorealism (1998)

#15
post #13

> 6. Information wants to be protected. It's true that cyberspace and other recent developments are challenging our copyright laws and frameworks for protecting intellectual property. The answer, though, is not to scrap existing statutes and principles. Instead, we must update old laws and interpretations so that information receives roughly the same protection it did in the context of old media. The goal is the same…

There's a potential middle ground.

- The present effective gate to the Internet is online service providers and mobile telephony / data providers.

- A combination of UBI (sufficient to support authors, musicians, and other creators) and reputation / merit-based compensation (for works of more substantial effort, notably jouranlism, investigation, and research) should be able to support creatives. Note that this is more a career than strictly performance ("units moved") basis. People don't turn out substantial work consistently, and much of what's turned out on a consistent basis ... is less than substantial.

- The "free Internet" already costs ~$800 billion/year, which divided amongst the roughly 1 billion inhabitants of North America and Europe (we'll include Japan and Australia by proxy) works out to ... $800/head, or $3,200 for a family of four, per year. That's the global advertising bill. And yes, it largely makes sense to allocate that amongst the OECD, the world's richest billion.

- A small fraction of that would support all existing journalism, music, and publishing handsomly, as well as much television and video production.

It's quite possible that there'd be some reallocation of compensation from the present mix. That might not be all bad.

I've suggested this a few times:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26822263

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26893033

Re: Technorealism (1998)

#16
post #4

> 1. Technologies are not neutral. > (...) It is important for each of us to consider the biases of various technologies _and to seek out those that reflect our values and aspirations._ (emphasis added) This couldn't have aged better. I'd argue the issue is with finding anything that doesn't reflect your ML-inferred "values and aspirations", at least when lurking on the big platforms. > 4. Information is not knowledg…

> 4. Information is not knowledge.

information is knowledge packaged for transport. converting information into knowledge is just called learning when humans do it. spreading information you don't understand is a service or a disservice depending on your intent.

Re: Technorealism (1998)

#17
post #7
post #5

Most of those statements are really silly. How do those people got to think and make claims like they have some authority over those issues?

It's a manifesto. They are saying "We are X, and here is what we believe". Anyone can do that, no authority required.

They are saying they represent some sort of consensus. Of course anyone can say that too, but most people don’t talk that way.

Re: Technorealism (1998)

#18
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a manifesto. They are saying "We are X, and here is what we believe". Anyone can do that, no authority required.

They are saying they represent some sort of consensus. Of course anyone can say that too, but most people don’t talk that way.

They represent the concensus amongst themselves, as technorealists.

As technorealists, we seek to expand the fertile middle ground between techno-utopianism and neo-Luddism. We are technology "critics" in the same way, and for the same reasons, that others are food critics, art critics, or literary critics. We can be passionately optimistic about some technologies, skeptical and disdainful of others. Still, our goal is neither to champion nor dismiss technology, but rather to understand it and apply it in a manner more consistent with basic human values.

From TFA.

Re: Technorealism (1998)

#19
It’s funny how cohesion in under represented groups communities barely mattered, but the perceived end of capitalist economics, American civic life as the mainstream knows it… omgurd

Human society shifts with literal priorities, not politically or socially preferred. We rebuilt after WW2 and churn around repainting, but a lot of folks need to get over the narrative not being about their tribe specifically

I include myself in this; if tech salaries implode because ML, oh well. I am not just a utilitarian gig

Re: Technorealism (1998)

#20
post #13

> 6. Information wants to be protected. It's true that cyberspace and other recent developments are challenging our copyright laws and frameworks for protecting intellectual property. The answer, though, is not to scrap existing statutes and principles. Instead, we must update old laws and interpretations so that information receives roughly the same protection it did in the context of old media. The goal is the same…

There's a potential middle ground. - The present effective gate to the Internet is online service providers and mobile telephony / data providers. - A combination of UBI (sufficient to support authors, musicians, and other creators) and reputation / merit-based compensation (for works of more substantial effort, notably jouranlism, investigation, and research) should be able to support creatives. Note that this is mo…

I've largely come to the same conclusion. We want to support the creation of something that the physical universe treats as abundant and nearly infinite (information), but our economics are not currently aligned with possibilities that lead to win/win solutions for artists/consumers and the poor who often don't factor in to economic equations.
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