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Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

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Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#61

Post by comeonseriously »

nerdjon wrote: post #47

You said other apps are fine, but are those other apps advertising themselves as parental controls or as stalking software? I took a look at your website https://truple.io and... there is very little mention of this being for parents. TBH looking at the website is... deeply concerning for anyone that would legitimately want to use this product. Especially on a spouse?!? I am willing to bet part of the issue is the ta…

> I am willing to bet part of the issue is the targeting for this app.

Then why can't Apple just fucking say that? Why all the stupid drama?

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#62

Post by camhart »

verall wrote: post #55
camhart wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original version of the app I submitted for notarization had the Truple logo, with a red dot/circle to indicate recording and make it more suspicious. The redesign I did dropped the red dot/circle because competitors weren't being forced to do anything like that. Competitors just use their logo. And their logo's aren't any more/less suspicious than Truple's. If you click on the notification on MacOS, a menu pops…

> The original version of the app I submitted for notarization had the Truple logo, with a red dot/circle to indicate recording and make it more suspicious. The redesign I did dropped the red dot/circle because competitors weren't being forced to do anything like that. Doesn't this seem kind of damning? Like you admit the recording dot is suspicious, so you remove it because why? Are you targeting anyone that isn't f…

Put on the hat of the end user. Keep in mind the end user is a child, or someone struggling with an online addiction/behavior they want to quit. They welcome the app, but those issues are somewhat personal. There's a balancing act I'm trying to walk here, of being reasonably suspicious while also not publishing for everyone who peeks over their shoulder that they're using an app like this.

Again, if the red dot matters, I'll add it back.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#63

Post by tptacek »

camhart wrote: post #16
tptacek wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The platform is wary of surveillance applications, which often have off-label use as stalking tools. It's not so much about whether people agree with parental controls or not; it's that Apple sets a different standard for intrusive parental control software than it does for other tools, because parental control tools are widely misused. If that's the problem you're running up against here, and not that you somehow em…

Then why do they allow competitors to do it? They should be facing the same issues.

What's your hypothesis about why they're not letting you do something? Do they just not like you? That seems unlikely.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#64

Post by dj_mc_merlin »

I think what's really happening is your app is in a grey area. There's similar apps on the market which haven't been removed, and a mountain which have. Now yours has been removed since someone thought it straddled the line the wrong way too far, and there is no incentive to restore it. That would require affirming that they specifically condone it again. Nobody has any special interest in doing so.

No matter how much you make concessions and try to obey the rules, a surveillance app is always shady. Much like brothels still have a shady atmosphere even where it's legal. Some markets are so.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#65

Post by tptacek »

camhart wrote: post #62
verall wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The original version of the app I submitted for notarization had the Truple logo, with a red dot/circle to indicate recording and make it more suspicious. The redesign I did dropped the red dot/circle because competitors weren't being forced to do anything like that. Doesn't this seem kind of damning? Like you admit the recording dot is suspicious, so you remove it because why? Are you targeting anyone that isn't f…

Put on the hat of the end user. Keep in mind the end user is a child, or someone struggling with an online addiction/behavior they want to quit. They welcome the app, but those issues are somewhat personal. There's a balancing act I'm trying to walk here, of being reasonably suspicious while also not publishing for everyone who peeks over their shoulder that they're using an app like this. Again, if the red dot matte…

Apple's reasonable concern here might be that the end user isn't a child, or even someone who consents to have the application running.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#66

Post by tptacek »

camhart wrote: post #54
nerdjon wrote: post #47

You said other apps are fine, but are those other apps advertising themselves as parental controls or as stalking software? I took a look at your website https://truple.io and... there is very little mention of this being for parents. TBH looking at the website is... deeply concerning for anyone that would legitimately want to use this product. Especially on a spouse?!? I am willing to bet part of the issue is the ta…

> You said other apps are fine, but are those other apps advertising themselves as parental controls or as stalking software? Search for "accountability software", and you'll find apps advertised in a very similar manner that have had no issues with Apple, with absolutely no mentioning of parental controls. > I took a look at your website https://truple.io and... there is very little mention of this being for parents…

What are some of the comparable applications you're thinking about? Can you link to them? You know more about the space than most of us, so help us out a bit.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#67

Post by tptacek »

comeonseriously wrote: post #61
nerdjon wrote: post #47

You said other apps are fine, but are those other apps advertising themselves as parental controls or as stalking software? I took a look at your website https://truple.io and... there is very little mention of this being for parents. TBH looking at the website is... deeply concerning for anyone that would legitimately want to use this product. Especially on a spouse?!? I am willing to bet part of the issue is the ta…

> I am willing to bet part of the issue is the targeting for this app. Then why can't Apple just fucking say that? Why all the stupid drama?

Likely for the same reason that not every rule about combating spam and promotion on HN is public: because if you document them all, you're providing a blueprint to bad actors for how to get around the rules.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#68

Post by tptacek »

camhart wrote: post #46
matheusmoreira wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's your own device, I guess it's fine. I'm not sure I would consider my child's phone to be my device though. I certainly wouldn't have tolerated that sort of behavior from my parents when I was a kid myself.

Whether the device your child uses is yours, or theirs, that's up to you as the parent to decide. > I certainly wouldn't have tolerated that sort of behavior from my parents when I was a kid myself. Kids will be kids. I would have been the same way. I learned to pick a lock on the computer desk as a kid in order to play computer games after I was supposed to be in bed. The issues is the negative impact of tech is onl…

You keep talking about kids, but your own advertising talks about spouses using this. That's considerably less benign.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#69

Post by camhart »

zokier wrote: post #49

2.5 years sounds pretty extreme. Not from Apples part (its pretty on-brand), but on your part.. To me it sounds like it would be time to just leave the platform behind and move on with your life? Ask yourself is it really worthwhile to fight the uphill battle against Apple to get your app approved?

I don't intend to throw in the towel until I've exhausted my options. I'd hoped that being patient would garner favor with Apple. This has proven it doesn't.

Personally speaking, I also fear rejection/failure. Dealing with this has been extremely difficult for me emotionally.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#70

Post by tptacek »

GVRV wrote: post #59

I don't understand why people are trying to guess the reason why Apple is doing this. I'm not a fan of this concept, but I wouldn't label it as malware to be used by abusive spouses and parents. If you read the FAQs on the website, it clearly states: Can I hide the Truple notification icon? No. Truple is voluntary use software, and is not intended (or allowed) to be used as spyware. All of our applications require a…

If you read the thread we're commenting on, you'll see that the author removed a conspicuous warning indicator that screen recording was enabled, because their competitors didn't seem to be required to provide one. We don't know who those competitors are, but we do know that the author deliberately made this surveillance app stealthier because they believed they'd get away with it.
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