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Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

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Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#51

Post by verall »

camhart wrote: post #44
amelius wrote: post #40

Parental control sounds like something the OS should do, not an app. From that viewpoint, I think you chose an application that inherently has a risk of being taken over by Apple, and frankly, you should not be surprised that something like this happened.

Whether I agree or not, they aren't doing it. They've had decades to build it in, but what is built in sucks and is easily bypassed. See https://protectyoungeyes.com/12-ingenious-screen-time-hacks-... . While I wasn't so aware of the risk when I started, I've learned plenty about it over the past 4.5 years. > frankly, you should not be surprised that something like this happened. Did you read the whole description? T…

I thought the point is that it is easily bypassed or disabled, so in a coercive or sensitive situation the physical holder of the phone can take control.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#52

Post by bogwog »

Ignore the people calling you malware here. They’re just Apple fanboys who have never tried to run a business before.

Your app sounds like it offers real value and is actually innovating. Apple is destroying your business at their discretion, for seemingly no reason.

Have you consulted with any lawyers? If they’re suspending your account without any cause, I think that counts as a breach of contract on their end. And if there were are a lot of competitors popping up in the past 2.5 years, you could potentially even calculate some hefty damages beyond just the $99/year Apple tax.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#54

Post by camhart »

nerdjon wrote: post #47

You said other apps are fine, but are those other apps advertising themselves as parental controls or as stalking software? I took a look at your website https://truple.io and... there is very little mention of this being for parents. TBH looking at the website is... deeply concerning for anyone that would legitimately want to use this product. Especially on a spouse?!? I am willing to bet part of the issue is the ta…

> You said other apps are fine, but are those other apps advertising themselves as parental controls or as stalking software?

Search for "accountability software", and you'll find apps advertised in a very similar manner that have had no issues with Apple, with absolutely no mentioning of parental controls.

> I took a look at your website https://truple.io and... there is very little mention of this being for parents. TBH looking at the website is... deeply concerning for anyone that would legitimately want to use this product. Especially on a spouse?!?

It's used voluntarily by the device owner. It's not used "on" anyone. The whole point of this is to provide accountability. Including a comment from below I'd hoped would get pinned: "Some may not agree with the use of parental control/accountability software. That's fine. Truple is not designed for you. There are tons of people who are negatively impacted by technology and they desperately need/want help. They should have the option to get it, and there should be competition in the space to deliver the best product for them. In today's world, using the internet is a part of life, and isn't something you can reasonably go without. Truple was built to help people learn to use technology responsibly with the help of their loved ones."

> Last... I find your focus on "online filth" insulting.

Online filth was intended to generalize the concerns, not focus them.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#55

Post by verall »

camhart wrote: post #27
w1nk wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to imagine the answer lies in the interpretation of the rules you quoted in your post: My app is in alignment with it... I've made sure since day one that a "reasonably suspicious" notification is present when the app is monitoring. Could you elaborate on what your version of this reasonably suspicious notification compared to your competitors actually is?

The original version of the app I submitted for notarization had the Truple logo, with a red dot/circle to indicate recording and make it more suspicious. The redesign I did dropped the red dot/circle because competitors weren't being forced to do anything like that. Competitors just use their logo. And their logo's aren't any more/less suspicious than Truple's. If you click on the notification on MacOS, a menu pops…

> The original version of the app I submitted for notarization had the Truple logo, with a red dot/circle to indicate recording and make it more suspicious. The redesign I did dropped the red dot/circle because competitors weren't being forced to do anything like that.

Doesn't this seem kind of damning? Like you admit the recording dot is suspicious, so you remove it because why? Are you targeting anyone that isn't fully aware of what the truple notification means, maybe because they are a child or otherwise mentally compromised?

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#56

Post by nerdjon »

camhart wrote: post #46
matheusmoreira wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's your own device, I guess it's fine. I'm not sure I would consider my child's phone to be my device though. I certainly wouldn't have tolerated that sort of behavior from my parents when I was a kid myself.

Whether the device your child uses is yours, or theirs, that's up to you as the parent to decide. > I certainly wouldn't have tolerated that sort of behavior from my parents when I was a kid myself. Kids will be kids. I would have been the same way. I learned to pick a lock on the computer desk as a kid in order to play computer games after I was supposed to be in bed. The issues is the negative impact of tech is onl…

Phones are also how children are able to find out about things in a safe space.

I am thankful every day that I grew up very technical and I was able to hide being gay from my parents but find the resources I needed online.

If a phone is my only resource, this removes every ability for a child to find resources if they are curious about their sexuality.

Or worse, if their parents are abusive this removes the ability completely for the child to safely get help.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#57

Post by btown »

nyuszika7h wrote: post #28
umvi wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet from my perspective your software is malware. So don't buy/install it. But don't take away that choice from other people. I have a good married friend who uses parental control software on himself to reduce the temptation to look at porn. It basically just gives his wife access to his browsing history. Sure, he could bypass it a number of ways if he was really determined, but it's more about just raising th…

> So don't buy/install it. But don't take away that choice from other people. It's not that simple. You are purposefully bringing up an extremely rare use case to detract from the fact that 99% of users of this software are going to be abusive parents who install it on their children's phones without consent. (Or heck, maybe even abusive spouses.) If parents are that concerned, even banning their children from "innoc…

Designing systems that don't empower abusers is so, so incredibly important.

Completely separately, though, it's also the case that OP is essentially building an Internet-connected backdoor into the system that will have been permitted to monitor cross-app activity. Even if data is E2E encrypted, that doesn't mean the software is immune from vulnerabilities that could then piggyback on the elevated permissions given to the app. And OP being a bootstrapped developer without the resources to have robust security practices is a liability here. Apple's response to treat this as a vulnerability is reasonable.

(As a side note, if OP wanted to distribute source code and unsigned binaries, macOS would allow an end user to run that software, and that's a perfectly reasonable caveat emptor for me. But Apple is under no obligation to digitally vouch for software that enables abusers and hackers.)

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#58

Post by camhart »

bogwog wrote: post #52

Ignore the people calling you malware here. They’re just Apple fanboys who have never tried to run a business before. Your app sounds like it offers real value and is actually innovating. Apple is destroying your business at their discretion, for seemingly no reason. Have you consulted with any lawyers? If they’re suspending your account without any cause, I think that counts as a breach of contract on their end. And…

I appreciate this. Thank you. I'm sorry you were down voted at my defense.

> Your app sounds like it offers real value and is actually innovating. Apple is destroying your business at their discretion, for seemingly no reason. People really get fired up about apps like this, but few people can say they've built software that has saved marriages and helped parents to raise their children. I honestly can and am honored and grateful to be able to do it.

I have not yet consulted lawyers on it. That's one of the next steps I'd been considering if I can't make "going public" helpful.

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#59

Post by GVRV »

I don't understand why people are trying to guess the reason why Apple is doing this. I'm not a fan of this concept, but I wouldn't label it as malware to be used by abusive spouses and parents.

If you read the FAQs on the website, it clearly states:

   Can I hide the Truple notification icon?
   No. Truple is voluntary use software, and is not intended (or allowed) to be used as spyware. All of our applications require a persistent notification.
And if Apple thinks this is malware or might be a legal liability, why can't it be transparent in its communication with the developer?

Re: Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting

#60

Post by camhart »

newaccount74 wrote: post #36
camhart wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a persistent notification that says "Truple - Screenshot Accountability" on it, and when it's clicked, it opens up the Truple app or menu depending on the platform. Competitors do a similar thing and aren't running into issues with Apple for it. If Apple had an issue with something like this, they should let me know and I'd adjust according to their feedback. I've asked--all I get back is silence.

Are you sure competitors aren't struggling with App review as well?

They've had apps in the app store for years, and MacOS apps notarized. If they're struggling, they're at least able to work with Apple where I'm not.
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