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Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

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Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#221

Post by [deleted] »

malermeister wrote: post #153
dionidium wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this was “figured out” like you think it’s some kind of natural law that was discovered by scientists. It’s not. It’s a value judgement. It’s not at all clear the trade-off is worth it and the very quote you supplied argues for “intolerance of intolerance” as a kind of a last resort, once things turn violent. Second, as a practical matter, it’s not at all clear what constitutes intolerance. If you think the s…

I am Austrian. We suffered the history. We know where this goes. This is figured out, the only alternative is the descent into fascist totalitarianism. > the very quote you supplied argues for “intolerance of intolerance” as a kind of a last resort, once things turn violent. As it already did on Jan 6th and in Charlottesville. We've seen all of this before. Instead of brown shirts, we have red hats. The ideas and the…

[deleted]

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#222

Post by hrbf »

whitepaint wrote: post #6

Aren't governments (especially Germany and Australia for what they are doing at the moment) way more scarier than big tech? I am not scared of Google or Facebook at all. I am, however, scared of governments. Especially seeing how the pandemic was handled and how little resistance the handling got from the citizens.

> Aren't governments (especially Germany and Australia for what they are doing at the moment) way more scarier than big tech?

Could you elaborate please? I’m a German citizen and do not understand what you mean by that.

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#223

Post by philjohn »

dionidium wrote: post #112
philjohn wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you plese define what that political viewpoint is you're talking about? Is it saying that the government should be smaller and not involved in everyday life, or is it doing things like claiming an election was stolen, which has led to real world harm (poll workers receiving death threats), or calling for violence?

Clearly, in a democracy you should be allowed to argue that an election was stolen, even if the evidence for your case isn’t strong. You can also argue for astrology or homeopathy or natural cures or any other in a long list of things that I think are pretty obviously untrue and harmful if propagated.

The core difference is between arguing something, and stating something is a fact.

Just like if you offered homeopathy "medications" or natural cures and stated they are curative, you're likely to fall under jurisdiction of medical licensing authorities (notwithstanding the "health supplement" loophole in the US).

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#224

Post by whitepaint »

hrbf wrote: post #222
whitepaint wrote: post #6

Aren't governments (especially Germany and Australia for what they are doing at the moment) way more scarier than big tech? I am not scared of Google or Facebook at all. I am, however, scared of governments. Especially seeing how the pandemic was handled and how little resistance the handling got from the citizens.

> Aren't governments (especially Germany and Australia for what they are doing at the moment) way more scarier than big tech? Could you elaborate please? I’m a German citizen and do not understand what you mean by that.

You just need to see one picture: https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1469357170990923779

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#225

Post by dionidium »

malermeister wrote: post #153
dionidium wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this was “figured out” like you think it’s some kind of natural law that was discovered by scientists. It’s not. It’s a value judgement. It’s not at all clear the trade-off is worth it and the very quote you supplied argues for “intolerance of intolerance” as a kind of a last resort, once things turn violent. Second, as a practical matter, it’s not at all clear what constitutes intolerance. If you think the s…

I am Austrian. We suffered the history. We know where this goes. This is figured out, the only alternative is the descent into fascist totalitarianism. > the very quote you supplied argues for “intolerance of intolerance” as a kind of a last resort, once things turn violent. As it already did on Jan 6th and in Charlottesville. We've seen all of this before. Instead of brown shirts, we have red hats. The ideas and the…

I don't find any of this convincing. If there were some way to quantify what you're arguing here, I'd short it.

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#226

Post by malermeister »

dionidium wrote: post #225
malermeister wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Austrian. We suffered the history. We know where this goes. This is figured out, the only alternative is the descent into fascist totalitarianism. > the very quote you supplied argues for “intolerance of intolerance” as a kind of a last resort, once things turn violent. As it already did on Jan 6th and in Charlottesville. We've seen all of this before. Instead of brown shirts, we have red hats. The ideas and the…

I don't find any of this convincing. If there were some way to quantify what you're arguing here, I'd short it.

That's what the germans said in the late 20s too :-)

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#227

Post by [deleted] »

lostmsu wrote: post #219
toss1 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I guess you missed this debacle ...entire domain is banned in Facebook Messenger... a political example of such censorship. If you are an absolutist about free speech, you should be loudly cheering this decision. Facebook Messenger is a private company — they should be fully free to say or not say, broadcast or not broadcast, serve or not serve, anything/anyone they want. Did I miss some governmental agency orderin…

> If you are an absolutist about free speech, you should be loudly cheering this decision. Facebook Messenger is a private company What? The freedom you are talking about is the freedom of association, not the freedom of free speech. > ... Doesn't matter if you call this stuff "recommendation engine" or "editorial decisions", it is still censorship by definition. This is the newspeak George Carlin had a relatively kn…

[deleted]

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#228

Post by toss1 »

lostmsu wrote: post #219
toss1 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I guess you missed this debacle ...entire domain is banned in Facebook Messenger... a political example of such censorship. If you are an absolutist about free speech, you should be loudly cheering this decision. Facebook Messenger is a private company — they should be fully free to say or not say, broadcast or not broadcast, serve or not serve, anything/anyone they want. Did I miss some governmental agency orderin…

> If you are an absolutist about free speech, you should be loudly cheering this decision. Facebook Messenger is a private company What? The freedom you are talking about is the freedom of association, not the freedom of free speech. > ... Doesn't matter if you call this stuff "recommendation engine" or "editorial decisions", it is still censorship by definition. This is the newspeak George Carlin had a relatively kn…

IIRC, we are talking about your complaint that Facebook Messenger banned and doesn't carry messages from some domain. That's a speech/press issue, not association.

(If you really want it to be association with which FBM is somehow interfering, where is the govt order? Otherwise, meet all you want, but where is the requirement that some other property owner host you? Are you interfering with freedom of association rights because you put up a 'No Trespassing' sign and my band of drummer and bonfire artists can't come on your land for our meetings?)

The last time I checked, any tech communication platform is owned by the stockholders and managed by the executive team. They are a non-govt entity.

As such, they have rights to publish or say, post, broadcast whatever THEY choose. Or, to not do so. Similarly, if HN finds a user abusing the forum, they are free to ban them.

Was there some govt order requiring FBM to ban the trump-related domain? If so, please post a citation.

If you have no official government action coercing the ban, it is a private decision. If that private was made by an algorithm, it was a recommendation engine or algorithmic. If it was made directly by a human, it was an editorial decision.

It seems like you are arguing AGAINST freedom of non-govt entities to say or not say, publish or not publish what they want.

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#229

Post by dionidium »

malermeister wrote: post #226
dionidium wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find any of this convincing. If there were some way to quantify what you're arguing here, I'd short it.

That's what the germans said in the late 20s too :-)

Yes, but either the current situation is like Germany in the 1920s or it isn't and either way it remains the case that it's what the Germans said in the late 20s, so it doesn't actually help us to know that that's what they said, since it will have been what they said even in the case where our situation is absolutely nothing like theirs.

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#230

Post by hrbf »

whitepaint wrote: post #224
hrbf wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aren't governments (especially Germany and Australia for what they are doing at the moment) way more scarier than big tech? Could you elaborate please? I’m a German citizen and do not understand what you mean by that.

You just need to see one picture: https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1469357170990923779

That picture does not answer my question. What exactly has that to do with the German and Australian governments you mentioned?
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