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Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

npr.org

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Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#151
post #3

Just to make sure I understand this — the argument is that in order to combat authoritarianism, Silicon Valley companies should censor more content?

Yes, and to think otherwise is extremely naive. I see this as another manifestation of the paradox of tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance That doesn't mean that companies should be free from scrutiny or consequences if they overstep.

As it says in the article you linked, this type of situation js practically the opposite of what was described in Popper's book:

"Nonetheless, alternative interpretations are often misattributed to Popper in defense of extra-judicial (including violent) suppression of intolerance such as hate speech, outside of democratic institutions, an idea which Popper himself never espoused. The chapter in question explicitly defines the context to that of political institutions and the democratic process, and rejects the notion of "the will of the people" having valid meaning outside of those institutions. Thus, in context, Popper's acquiescence to suppression when all else has failed applies only to the state in a liberal democracy with a constitutional rule of law that must be just in its foundations, but will necessarily be imperfect."

I'm not sure how Facebook posts are literal physical violence. Also, it's so weird to keep seeing this supposed paradox cited (incorrectly) ad nauseum to justify basically any infringement on free speech when it was barely a concept he wrote about in passing, with very little thought put into it by Popper himself. Even if it was used correctly, It's just a very small thought exercise written by an author almost a century ago, it's not a natural law lol.

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#152
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you have integrity of the justice system if you don't have integrity of facts? What you call torture, is the isolation and lack-of-stimulus we put all prisoners through. This treatment is not specific to harass Assange, but Assange and his team wants special treatment specific to Assange. Assange is different in many ways. A journalist normally does not convince a suicidal army recruit in Iraq to search the l…

Dumbest comment of the internet today. You think the guys that published the watergate stories just said "hey give us what you got and we'll see what we can do with it?" At best you're blatantly astroturfing. At least have the balls to stick your opinion to your account.

Heh. Was not Watergate itself about breaking in and stealing documents?

According to US, Assange went too far by playing this kid, asking him to use his privilege to scour the network for encrypted files and hand these over. How could Manning even had known of the contents? Or that Wikileaks was safe to trust for protecting its sources and avoiding state-actor influence?

At best that was cyberpunk activism, not journalism.

> At best you're blatantly astroturfing.

What's the worst you got?

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is known as the paradox of tolerance and was figured out right after WW2 by Karl Popper, an Austrian philosopher who witnessed the rise of the Nazis. Authoritarians use the framework of a free society to rise to power until they are strong enough to topple it. A free society must be able to defend itself against that approach, even if it might seem contrary to its own values. Here's the way he formulated it: > U…

You say this was “figured out” like you think it’s some kind of natural law that was discovered by scientists. It’s not. It’s a value judgement. It’s not at all clear the trade-off is worth it and the very quote you supplied argues for “intolerance of intolerance” as a kind of a last resort, once things turn violent. Second, as a practical matter, it’s not at all clear what constitutes intolerance. If you think the s…

I am Austrian. We suffered the history. We know where this goes. This is figured out, the only alternative is the descent into fascist totalitarianism.

> the very quote you supplied argues for “intolerance of intolerance” as a kind of a last resort, once things turn violent.

As it already did on Jan 6th and in Charlottesville.

We've seen all of this before. Instead of brown shirts, we have red hats. The ideas and the approach are the same.

> Second, as a practical matter, it’s not at all clear what constitutes intolerance. If you think the state has standing to adjudicate intolerance, then I can’t imagine you’ve been paying attention to the kind of routine social errors that are labeled intolerance on social media. The notion that it’s a legitimate function of the state to weigh in on these banal disagreements is risible.

All of these minor quibbles are irrelevant. There's a violent fascist movement forming and growing stronger by the day.

The Beer Hall Putsch [0] already happened on Jan 6th, the "cultural bolshevism" [1] bogeyman has been slightly rebranded to "cultural marxism" and is being used for propaganda purposes all over the place again. A new Big Lie [2] has been set up in the form of "Trump won!". Mainstream conservatives are behaving like Von Papen. [3]

Obsta Principiis!

If we don't nip this in the bud right now, we will soon see the new version of the Enabling Act [4] and all the horrors that followed.

I understand you might lack the perspective as you most likely don't have the same history to compare it to. Please heed the warning of somebody who does. These things sneak up on you and you won't be able to realize it until it's too late. This excellent excerpt from Milton Mayer's They Thought They Were Free talks about this phenomenom, I implore you to read it. [5]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Bolshevism [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Papen#Bringing_Hitle... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933 [5] https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#155
post #3

Just to make sure I understand this — the argument is that in order to combat authoritarianism, Silicon Valley companies should censor more content?

Social media always censors in a way by promoting certain content and burying other content. It is mediated communication not direct communication, and these platforms are neither fair nor open. They haven’t been since the advent of algorithmic timelines and engagement maximization.

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#156
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say shit on the internet...

Shit, I didn't know that! Serious face back on. Have you ever seen a concise word for algorithmicly-drowning-people-in-shit-on-social-media-because-profit?

You could call it the Fifth Circle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Fifth_Circle_(...) of Hell as a service.

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#157
post #42

Democracy has always faced the problem that come elections, every living soul has one vote, but not every soul is equally equipped to be critical about information they are exposed to. The solution is not to inhibit freedom of thought and speech, it is to teach new generations of people to be more critical. Ultimately in the long run democracy and free societies are always more likely to triumph against authoritarian…

> Democracy has always faced the problem that come elections, every living soul has one vote.

The one people, one vote, is a problem that has been 'fixed' since the start with gentle corrections and tricks. If your vote score 1 point and mine score 1000 points, then it does not matter if you are very well informed or not.

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#158
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure yellow journalism existed. But it had anything resembling the scale, scope, reach, and speed as current technology As a share of current events information , it was greater, often virtually monopolistic, for not just “yellow journalism” generally but often a fairly unified single viewpoint of yellow journalism. (In terms of divisiveness, the actual problem today isn't greater proportional influence of yellow j…

I don't see how arguing that how bad yellow journalism was in the past is an argument for continuing it now. Seems a bit like saying 'slavery was bad before, so discrimination is ok now'. Both are unacceptable in sustainable society. Perhaps a particular case was overturned, but the principle still rings true. Or, are you saying that it should really be OK for people to deliberately make verbal actions that directly…

It doesn't ring true. It's false, thats it. You are saying that even if you used an overturned century old case to justify censorship, you are still right? Why exactly? You might want it to be true but using it as a foot in the door to justify even more slippery slope restrictions just does not work very well when it's not been relevant for 50 years now.

And we lived all that time without the sky falling over, or society collapsing into more intolerance than 100 years ago. So much so that a lot of people still think that it just ought to be illegal. Doesn't that prove that we actually don't have to restrict speech or "intolerance" ? Or do you think that we are worse off in that regard that back when shouting fire in a theater was a reasonable restriction on free speech?

Re: Nobel Peace laureates blast tech giants and warn against rising authoritarianism

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tracking pixel on a website doesn't make me that pixels customer, anymore than being photographed by a photographer on the street makes me their customer.

By that standard, most Google and Facebook users aren't customers anyway. Nobody pays to use Google Search or Facebook.

You're either a customer using their services directly, or you're the customer of one of their customers. You only have direct influence over the former, and can decide to avoid companies that fall in the latter.
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