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Goodbye Gas Fees

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Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#91

Post by carry_bit »

thebean11 wrote: post #81
carry_bit wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Bitcoin, the miners can be expected to pay for large ASIC mining rigs, but can't be expected to pay for a couple of TB (for 10x increase) of extra storage every year?

The miners aren't the only ones who need to store the blockchain. If you don't run your own node, you are trusting someone else to tell you your balance and whether or not someone has paid you which is..not ideal.

You don't need to store the entire blockchain to know that from scratch. Download yes, but not store.

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#94

Post by jdmichal »

soco wrote: post #60
poisonborz wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and look at the sea of unseeded torrents, basically all that is older than a few weeks and not backed by some paid/autseeded tracker or devout datahoarder (not defending Ethereum's approach here though).

If people are not interested anymore on that torrent, it disappears. Same how it happens with an IPFS file.

Except, there's not really a clear signal of "Hey, a bunch of people want this!" unless they all just hop on the torrent and hope for a seeder to join. If I go to a store and they don't have bread, I'm not waiting for their next bread delivery for them to stock the aisles...

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#96

Post by mule1 »

shiohime wrote: post #58
Uptrenda wrote: post #20

Doesn't this just make on-boarding users even more convoluted? You'll have to probably get a large amount of Ether and then 'commit' it to another L2 to receive whatever their backed token equivalent is. Then you'll use this token to pay for things which will have no network effect, apps, or merchants in the beginning. Basically all adoption goes back to square one while providing a confusing and worse user-experienc…

Even if you can withdraw straight to L2s, the main problem I have with this scaling solution is it is too convoluted. I have no faith in being able to explain this to people who aren't already crypto enthusiasts. It seems much easier to explain how to use a single scalable L1 than to explain a cluster of ever growing L2s and sidechains. I know there is a lot of work in the ecosystem but really this has to be masked h…

It's an incredibly complicated problem that is currently being worked on by ETH developers. However eventually this will be seemless for an average user. You can be using Uniswap for example on an L2 like arbitrum or zksync and have no idea your ETH is even there. Also ramps are being built to directly deposit into L2. The gas fees from bridging in and out of L2 will be solved when the majority of the traffic is happening on L2, the ETH L1 blockchain will only be used as a settlement layer for L2 traffic and much fewer transactions. Sharding which is coming will also bring down fees a ton for all settlement transactions in ETH L1.

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#97

Post by hackingforfun »

obulpathi wrote: post #17

Why use L2 when one can have a better experience with much lower fees (Solana, Avalance, Flow & Near). The new generation Blockchains like Solana and Avalance are far better than Ethereum. They are going throgh some growing pains, other wise, they beat Ethereum to dust in terms of speed, latency and performance. Solana takes a second to confirm a transaction, with 0.00025$ fees and can support more than 100,000 tx/s.…

I like Solana but it has gone down several times. Not totally an apples to apples comparison to ETH, which I don't think has ever gone down (someone please reply if that is incorrect). ETH did need to be forked, but that's a different story.

Avalanche does seem promising. I like their concept of multiple chains: Exchange Chain (X-Chain), Platform Chain (P-Chain), and Contract Chain (C-Chain) [1].

[1] https://docs.avax.network/learn/platform-overview/README/

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#98

Post by rvz »

throwaway21332 wrote: post #50
Uptrenda wrote: post #20

Doesn't this just make on-boarding users even more convoluted? You'll have to probably get a large amount of Ether and then 'commit' it to another L2 to receive whatever their backed token equivalent is. Then you'll use this token to pay for things which will have no network effect, apps, or merchants in the beginning. Basically all adoption goes back to square one while providing a confusing and worse user-experienc…

Binance is supporting direct deposits/withdrawals to Arbitrum. I'd expect more exchanges to do this with other L2s.

So once again, Ethereum users relying on centralized exchanges to bring the gas fees down (when the steps involved confuses users and the fees are still high).

Given that being the case, the general decentralization argument would be pointless. For the many users who need to be able to pay for their groceries quickly, you might as well use Solana then, since everyone needs to eat.

The whole point of Uniswap is to move away from these centralized exchanges. Perhaps using that has gotten more complicated to use or the swaps have also gotten too expensive even if it is on an L2; making that useless as well?

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#99

Post by landemva »

TimJRobinson wrote: post #88
obulpathi wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think Solana is Centralized? It runs over 2000 nodes. The number is currently is less than that of Ethereum node count, as the demand is less. It also would be a fair comparison to compare what is existing today. So, please don't say that Ethereum 2.0 will be far more efficient. By that time Solana would have made great strides too. So, let's compare what is existing today. Ethereum 2.0 is being touted…

It has 1200 validators, compared to 260,000 on Ethereum, and it's basically impossible for anyone to run a node at home because it requires 300Mbps+ internet connection to run one. The problem with this you can't yourself verify what is happening on the chain, you have to trust that the node operators are acting in good faith and not censoring transactions or forming cartels to manipulate history. This is ok if you o…

The connection bandwidth, and to a lesser extent the computer hardware, push validators to run in data centers. The reliable fat bandwidth is a big requirement which drives centralization.

If most Solana validators run on AWS, then it is as centralized as the AWS datacenters. I think they have 50+ facilities now.

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#100

Post by hackingforfun »

HorizonXP wrote: post #35
obulpathi wrote: post #17

Why use L2 when one can have a better experience with much lower fees (Solana, Avalance, Flow & Near). The new generation Blockchains like Solana and Avalance are far better than Ethereum. They are going throgh some growing pains, other wise, they beat Ethereum to dust in terms of speed, latency and performance. Solana takes a second to confirm a transaction, with 0.00025$ fees and can support more than 100,000 tx/s.…

Solana and Avalanche are fantastic L1s, and I am optimistic for their future. But I'm skeptical of their ability to replace Ethereum. To Solana's credit, they opted to create their own smart contract VM based on Rust, rather than build an EVM-compatible VM. It will take them time to get developer mindshare, but there's a real possibility to build dApps on Solana that couldn't exist on Solana. The same is true in some…

> To Solana's credit, they opted to create their own smart contract VM based on Rust, rather than build an EVM-compatible VM. It will take them time to get developer mindshare, but there's a real possibility to build dApps on Solana that couldn't exist on Solana.

Good point. What are your thoughts on Cardano, Algorand and Tezos?

Interesting points about AVAX's C-chain and Fantom as well. I have a friend who did a project on Fantom due to lower gas fees and it also being EVM compatible, but yeah, it's using Solidity.

Also, just wondering, do you agree with this quote from the article?

> What most people don’t know is: Gas fees on Ethereum are supposed to be high. The goal for Etheruem is not to be the chain most consumers transact on. It’s to be the settlement layer for a number of other chains sitting on top of it, which can run much faster and much cheaper, because they’re backed by Ethereum’s security and infrastructure. In other words: the consensus layer for a variety of networks.

I'd also be curious to hear once you have time to look into zkRollup L2's.

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