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Goodbye Gas Fees

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Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#81

Post by thebean11 »

carry_bit wrote: post #66
ReaLNero wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A transaction incurs one-time electricity costs for the miner, but also permanent storage costs for miners (who must have a full blockchain copy). For a miner, currently the latter is negligible. Increasing block size implies more storage space needed, which would push amateur miners out, making Bitcoin less decentralized than now[0]. Over time, the storage costs will become massive. This is why block sizes have stay…

With Bitcoin, the miners can be expected to pay for large ASIC mining rigs, but can't be expected to pay for a couple of TB (for 10x increase) of extra storage every year?

The miners aren't the only ones who need to store the blockchain. If you don't run your own node, you are trusting someone else to tell you your balance and whether or not someone has paid you which is..not ideal.

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#82

Post by aforwardslash »

jacob_rezi wrote: post #38
alasdair_ wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the blockchain verify my identity? Or that I worked any of the places I claimed to work?

It would verify that you are the original creator of the resume. It would also allow the hiring manager to instantly and independently verify that the resume has not been altered by anyone accept you. It does not verify claims of your experiences - that is a messier endeavor.

Fyi I can sign my pdf resume with my national id card with a legally binding digital signature. This provides all the same guarantees, without using a third party blockchain-based service.

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#83

Post by DennisP »

alasdair_ wrote: post #26
obulpathi wrote: post #19

I don't buy the argument: "ETH fees was meant to be high!". Its the same as saying "ETH is meant to be unusable for people other than whales."

Isn’t a low number of transactions per second essentially built in to the original ETH spec? If so, surely it’s likely that each transaction should be expensive?

Yes, but that's just because a design goal is for modest computers to be able to fully participate in the protocol, and the low number of transactions was the best they could do. They've also been planning to scale since early days. Here are some of Vitalik's blog posts on scaling back in 2014:

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/09/17/scalability-part-1-buil...

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/10/21/scalability-part-2-hype...

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/13/scalability-part-3-meta...

And here's one of his 2021 posts, in which he talks about the importance of regular users being able to run a node, but says a million tx/sec should be achievable:

https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/05/23/scaling.html

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#84

Post by TimJRobinson »

f0xJtpvHYTVQ88B wrote: post #74

> What most people don’t know is: Gas fees on Ethereum are supposed to be high. The goal for Etheruem is not to be the chain most consumers transact on. It’s to be the settlement layer for a number of other chains sitting on top of it, which can run much faster and much cheaper, because they’re backed by Ethereum’s security and infrastructure. In other words: the consensus layer for a variety of networks. Is there is…

Vitalik originally proposed it here: https://ethereum-magicians.org/t/a-rollup-centric-ethereum-r...

ETH2 is where Ethereum goes from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake and as a result uses 99% less electricity.

The second phase of ETH2 is sharding where instead of Ethereum being one big chain it has one execution chain and 64 additional data shards. This makes it scale incredibly well when it's a settlement layer for rollups (up to 14 million TPS with 1024 shards - See https://polynya.medium.com/conjecture-how-far-can-rollups-da...)

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#85

Post by obulpathi »

mule1 wrote: post #64
obulpathi wrote: post #17

Why use L2 when one can have a better experience with much lower fees (Solana, Avalance, Flow & Near). The new generation Blockchains like Solana and Avalance are far better than Ethereum. They are going throgh some growing pains, other wise, they beat Ethereum to dust in terms of speed, latency and performance. Solana takes a second to confirm a transaction, with 0.00025$ fees and can support more than 100,000 tx/s.…

This is all at the sacrifice of decentralization zkrollups and zkporter (one roll up solution) will eventually be able to handle transactions at that clip while being decentralized. The energy consumption point is incorrect as moving to proof of stake Ethereum will be using a fraction of the energy it uses today, however at the cost of capital concentration in the hands of validators which I actually see as a negativ…

What makes you think Solana is Centralized? It runs over 2000 nodes. The number is currently is less than that of Ethereum node count, as the demand is less.

It also would be a fair comparison to compare what is existing today. So, please don't say that Ethereum 2.0 will be far more efficient. By that time Solana would have made great strides too. So, let's compare what is existing today. Ethereum 2.0 is being touted for several years and still not ready. We can compare Ethereum 2.0, when it's ready and there, but not now.

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#86

Post by DennisP »

soco wrote: post #59
btown wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of Ethereum instead as the tamper-proof store for the audit log of the history of all smart contracts in the world. While in the early days you could just transact on that, it doesn't scale if everyone's trying to "write to disk" for every single transaction all at once. So the article, and the companion piece by the same author at https://every.to/almanack/defriday-2-polygon-s-surge-ethereu... describe ways to…

What guarantees there are for what happens off-chain? Because if that is garbage, the Ethereum will store tamper-proof garbage.

With zkrollups, there's a cryptographic guarantee that the off-chain computation is valid.

With optimistic rollups, there's a withdrawal delay so people have an opportunity to submit proof of fraud.

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#87

Post by TimJRobinson »

obulpathi wrote: post #17

Why use L2 when one can have a better experience with much lower fees (Solana, Avalance, Flow & Near). The new generation Blockchains like Solana and Avalance are far better than Ethereum. They are going throgh some growing pains, other wise, they beat Ethereum to dust in terms of speed, latency and performance. Solana takes a second to confirm a transaction, with 0.00025$ fees and can support more than 100,000 tx/s.…

Did you even read the article? This kind of misunderstand is exactly what it's addressing. L2's give instant confirmation, process 1000+ TPS, and cost far less than the L1 (ZK Rollups being a couple of cents per transaction), AND they are insanely more secure than Solana.

Solana is ok for now if you don't care about decentralization, but it barely handles more than a few thousand TPS without falling over or having degraded performance (as has happened twice in the last week!), and it can't scale much further with it's current structure.

A rollup centric system can scale to 14 million TPS by 2030 once a few core pieces of tech are released (see https://polynya.medium.com/conjecture-how-far-can-rollups-da...) on similar hardware to what Ethereum is running today (raspberry Pi's of 2030)

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#88

Post by TimJRobinson »

obulpathi wrote: post #85
mule1 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all at the sacrifice of decentralization zkrollups and zkporter (one roll up solution) will eventually be able to handle transactions at that clip while being decentralized. The energy consumption point is incorrect as moving to proof of stake Ethereum will be using a fraction of the energy it uses today, however at the cost of capital concentration in the hands of validators which I actually see as a negativ…

What makes you think Solana is Centralized? It runs over 2000 nodes. The number is currently is less than that of Ethereum node count, as the demand is less. It also would be a fair comparison to compare what is existing today. So, please don't say that Ethereum 2.0 will be far more efficient. By that time Solana would have made great strides too. So, let's compare what is existing today. Ethereum 2.0 is being touted…

It has 1200 validators, compared to 260,000 on Ethereum, and it's basically impossible for anyone to run a node at home because it requires 300Mbps+ internet connection to run one.

The problem with this you can't yourself verify what is happening on the chain, you have to trust that the node operators are acting in good faith and not censoring transactions or forming cartels to manipulate history.

This is ok if you only have a small amount of money or are using it for games or something that doesn't really matter. But it'll never be able to run the global financial system or store things of large value.

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#89

Post by TimJRobinson »

Uptrenda wrote: post #20

Doesn't this just make on-boarding users even more convoluted? You'll have to probably get a large amount of Ether and then 'commit' it to another L2 to receive whatever their backed token equivalent is. Then you'll use this token to pay for things which will have no network effect, apps, or merchants in the beginning. Basically all adoption goes back to square one while providing a confusing and worse user-experienc…

Most of them use ETH as their currency, but even if they have their own token once exchanges have direct withdrawls to them, and they have most apps, they'll feel the same as using any other L1.

We're still very much in the early days of this though, having to move between chains manually. There are bridges that allow executing contracts on other networks, and eventually apps will abstract the different layers away from users using technology like this.

Re: Goodbye Gas Fees

#90

Post by DennisP »

TimJRobinson wrote: post #84
f0xJtpvHYTVQ88B wrote: post #74

> What most people don’t know is: Gas fees on Ethereum are supposed to be high. The goal for Etheruem is not to be the chain most consumers transact on. It’s to be the settlement layer for a number of other chains sitting on top of it, which can run much faster and much cheaper, because they’re backed by Ethereum’s security and infrastructure. In other words: the consensus layer for a variety of networks. Is there is…

Vitalik originally proposed it here: https://ethereum-magicians.org/t/a-rollup-centric-ethereum-r... ETH2 is where Ethereum goes from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake and as a result uses 99% less electricity. The second phase of ETH2 is sharding where instead of Ethereum being one big chain it has one execution chain and 64 additional data shards. This makes it scale incredibly well when it's a settlement layer for r…

Yes and the point there isn't so much that on-chain transactions are "supposed to be expensive," but that zkrollups are just as secure as on-chain transactions but scale an order of magnitude better than executable shards, so executable shards start to look a little superfluous.

The researchers have floated the possibility of incorporating zkrollup tech into L1 eventually, but with the tech advancing so quickly it's hard to say whether it will ultimately make sense.

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