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Opt Out of Cynicism

dimitarsimeonov.com

71–80 of 336 posts

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#71

But what do I mean by being cynical? When you’re conversing with someone, it often easy to detect the frame through which they view the world and the interaction with you. Cynics think that the world is never changing on a fundamental level, but it only changes cosmetically, and superficially. Cynics may look at some new trend and call it “lipstick on a pig”. According to cynics, the world operates in a certain way,…

Of course the world operates in a certain way and it is important to understand it.

There are people who want to completely reject the fundamentals of how the world works. These are the people who create disasters.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#72

But what do I mean by being cynical? When you’re conversing with someone, it often easy to detect the frame through which they view the world and the interaction with you. Cynics think that the world is never changing on a fundamental level, but it only changes cosmetically, and superficially. Cynics may look at some new trend and call it “lipstick on a pig”. According to cynics, the world operates in a certain way,…

Cassandra was always right, and always powerless to change anything. If you are speculating (not investing) and nothing more, then sure, you only want to see what is. If you're creating, executing, advising, or actually investing, anchoring on what "is" risks losing to competition that suffers no such limitations. If you believe you have no power to change things, then it's a self fulfilling prophecy. If you believe…

No body blankly believes nothing can be changed, or believes everything can be changed. The two extremes are both obviously wrong. It's just important to understand what you can change and what you can't. So the starting point is about understanding how the world works, not just daydreaming.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#73
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes maybe my definition is wrong, I consider myself slightly cynical (I lived to see the excitement of cyberspace turn into Facebook after all), but perhaps I mean skeptical, although to me what you're talking about is more nihilism. There are some things that really don't change, and I guess that can be a source of cynicism. The poor will always be among you, lying politicians, the greedy rich, etc. But I'd argue th…

Interesting point about nihilism, appreciate your discussion. I still identify as cynical in many domains, though I don't think of myself as nihilistic as the latter seems more absolute. Re: things that really don't change, I'd say "until they do". Plenty of examples in history where the whole system switches to a different equilibrium point (for example as in "Inadequate Equilibria" book). When I'm referring to cyni…

Helpful.

The things that don't change I refer to, I really mean human nature, and I really think that doesn't change much. Some people just want to watch the world burn, etc, some people are greedy, narcissistic, lazy, psychotic, etc.

The cause for optimism, is that we can change society to better deal with the nature of the beast, bring out the best, and suppress the ugly. There's lots of work to do!

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#74

Another good quote for the OP is Miguel De Cervantes, author if Don Quixote: "there is madness in too much sanity, and the greatest madness of all is to see things as they are instead of as they should be". He would know: Cervantes killed a rival on a duel at 17 and fled to sea. They were attacked by pirates and he fought well before getting his hand blown off and taken prisoner. He lived in captivity but befriended…

> The point of this story is not that cynics were wrong but that one never would have survived his ordeal

It's interesting you'd use that story to make your point because about 2,000 years earlier Diogenes, the founder of Cynicism, was supposedly captured by pirates on the Mediterranean and sold into slavery. Not only did he survive but the man who purchased him was so impressed that he appointed him to run his household and tutor his children.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lives_of_the_Eminent_Philosop...

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#75
The author sounds like an apologete of "Four temperaments" theory. He believes cynic == someone who believes in "no change" and complains a lot. Then he labels people as either "cynics" or not. It is as simple as that. (BTW, that is not the definition of a cynic at all)

Human personalities are extremely complicated, and the best you can do is correlate traits given a huge amount of data which he probably does not have. So we have him boasting a theory, that is likely based on the fundamental attribution errors in his experiences, and people, who vote his post up, who happen to have a similar sentiment with a few anecdata (who would also probably disregard any anti-anecdata in this thread).

So is the nature of most Internet posts about psychology.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#76
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet (well, just worldwide connectivity IMO) has turned cynicism into a social signaling mechanism, it's not just HN. Cynical "dunks" burnish your qualifications to your in-group: make a "hot take" against US democrats, CRT, cryptocurrencies, management, VCs, capitalism, pastafarianism, you name it, and you'll get all your fellow in-group folks upvoting/retweeting/liking your "hot take". IMO this is the great…

I'm having a very hard time trying to understand what you are trying to communicate here: there's a quite divergent set of topics that have been lumped together as hostile, dangerous, & negative, & it doesn't compute for me. I'm going to take things one by one, so we can talk particulars & explore how we see these. > The internet (well, just worldwide connectivity IMO) has turned cynicism into a social signaling mech…

> there's a quite divergent set of topics that have been lumped together as hostile, dangerous, & negative, & it doesn't compute for me

I don't mean to say that any of these in particular are or are not hostile, dangerous, or negative. They were examples of issues that people like to have "dunks" or "hot takes" on.

> Again a weird conflation of that which is slammed versus that which slams & is woke. No one makes "hot takes" against pastafarianism. We all know they are already warm saucy goodness. Pastafarians don't make hot takes against anyone else. Like CRT, like US democrats, they're just trying to do good; they only want progress, there's no possession with tearing down the bad or other.

I'm not trying to sort these into sides. That's my point.

> This feels like turning a hunt for oppression into a reason to disregard people. Many groups deserved to be dunked on, BECAUSE THEY ARE CYNICAL. Because they are inaccessible, not open, not participating, not doing enough, doing bad, or outright acting in bad faith.

> It's difficult to figure out exactly where any voice is positioned, but, critical review that says: "you are not being optimistic enough": that's (sometimes) not cynical. Just because review is negative does not make it cynical. One can have higher expectations & use those to stage critical reviews.

> There's due cynicism against bad, there's due well wishes for the good to be better. I'm not completely opposed- there's certainly a critical air about- but to me it's not the internet & a lot of those airs are resistive to oppressionaries, are optimistic in nature. It is a very critical time, absolutely, but I don't see much of the critiques as cynical or performative or harmful: I see them as part of a direly needed push out of the long rut society has been stuck in, & a drive towards better.

The long rut of what, on what time scale, when? When was it "better" and when did it become "worse"? It wasn't that long ago that McCarthyism was used to bully political sides, when the US and the Soviet Union propped up brutal puppet regimes to fight proxy wars, when Africa/India/China was divided into an arbitrary map of colonial powers, when queer folks were unacceptable in the general public while being ruthlessly bullied (and this continues to this day!) in private, when Muslims/Arabs/South Asians were regularly frisked in Western airports, when people of color had their lives ruined for the possession of token amounts of recreational drugs. It's always been this way.

My point has nothing to do with either "side". That some of these are negative things by some and positive things by other is also something that I understand and accept. My point is that, when you create group-identity, you begin to get dialogue like "because fuck capitalism" that gets many upvotes/shares/engagement, instead of nuanced arguments like "there's no recourse for labor to fall back onto when management manipulates them". What that does is it crowds out the voices of people interested in novel ideas ("what if I get dunked on for being socialist/capitalist/Georgist/whatever") and shifts the dialogue away from problems and solutions into in-group signaling ("yeah I'm gonna upvote all the anti-capitalist posts because f*** the 1%!"). It's a culture that makes people defensive and adversarial ("ugh I wanna see what IPFS is all about but they're associated with Filecoin which is crypto and all my friends hate crypto so I shouldn't") instead of supportive and uplifting. It also then incenitivizes people ("huh I get lots of upvotes when I hate on , so I should keep doing it") to keep up the cycle of hot takes. When cynicism meets group-identity politics, you get IMO the worst case.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#77

my dear fellow cynics: hide it

Most of the ultra successful people I've known were optimists in speech, cynics in action. Best to participate in the theatre. Once you play a role long enough but also seem "pragmatic" in action, others of the same ilk will find you and invite you behind the curtain.

Right. Gotta do what you can to have the elites notice you and invite you for an initiation ritual into their kooky cult of deeply cynical hypocrisy. Great way to live, right?

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#78
post #5
post #2

the #1 advice I would give to a young engineer entering their career is to do everything they can to avoid becoming cynical. technology has cycles, but it also moves forward. it's a helix. most people who churn through a few cycles end up becoming cynical, failing to see the orthogonal dimension of progress. how to avoid cynicism? the primary way is to remove cynics from your life, and add optimists. second to that,…

One thing I've noticed is that if I talk about the stuff in tech I'm passionate about - people tend not to give a shit. If I talk about the things I dislike, I am flooded with imaginary internet points.

Then the solution is to be passionate about the things in tech you dislike.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#80

One of the great frustrations in these debates, is the tendency to criticize a messenger who sees a cynical system. Instead of blaming the system for being cynical. Sometimes the most Optimistic people are shut out of debates, because they won't assume the system is optimized for a noncynical purpose. My suspicion is that this ostracization is what grows the cynicism out of control.

Yeah. When people notice that something is suspicious, they become complainers. And the complainer is always wrong.

I think it stems from complaining is lazy. Its much more difficult to see why things are they way they are or see the virtue in things even if they have flaws.

Its not that complaining has no place, its just that most complaining is is the lowest common denominator and doesn’t contribute much.

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