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Opt Out of Cynicism

dimitarsimeonov.com

61–70 of 336 posts

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#61
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultra-agree, that a lot of cynicism- against from those in power & who need others to enlist in the message- is due. But I think there's a general level of mistrust, of wanting to pick easy/simple/dependable paths, of resisting good/bold/better, that's just a personal "pragmatism" which is really cynicism in disguise. I don't think most engineering departments & product-development-organizations give anywhere near a…

The internet (well, just worldwide connectivity IMO) has turned cynicism into a social signaling mechanism, it's not just HN. Cynical "dunks" burnish your qualifications to your in-group: make a "hot take" against US democrats, CRT, cryptocurrencies, management, VCs, capitalism, pastafarianism, you name it, and you'll get all your fellow in-group folks upvoting/retweeting/liking your "hot take". IMO this is the great…

I'm having a very hard time trying to understand what you are trying to communicate here: there's a quite divergent set of topics that have been lumped together as hostile, dangerous, & negative, & it doesn't compute for me. I'm going to take things one by one, so we can talk particulars & explore how we see these.

> The internet (well, just worldwide connectivity IMO) has turned cynicism into a social signaling mechanism, it's not just HN.

We're cutting to the punch here, but: a lot of the thing you are about to list sound less like "the internet" & more like general society waking up & understanding what's less than optimal.

> make a "hot take" against US democrats,

They're pretty useless absolutely but the opposition has been stalwartly effective. Bernie wasn't that far off from being president & even though he's far outside the current party, the core consitutents desire far far more from this party. A lot of democrats-the-people loath the uselessnessness. Hot takes are deserved against any party that has gotten so little done. But also, most democrats are pretty sympathetic to how impossible the situation has been, how constitutionally rigged everything has been against them getting any chance to do anything. It's been decade after decade of democrats having zero actual chance to pass anything meaningful, other than, say, Romneycare. the demorat's are slammable but we all know there's not in many's lifetime been a single chance to determine whether they're actually useful or not.

> CRT, cryptocurrencies, management, VCs, capitalism,

Mostly deserved & out of touch higher echelon's detached from ground truth. The one exception IMO: I don't see any dunking against Critical Race Theory (CRT)s that doesn't come off as maligning & poisonous. There's no popular way to be anti-woke, yay.

> pastafarianism

Again a weird conflation of that which is slammed versus that which slams & is woke. No one makes "hot takes" against pastafarianism. We all know they are already warm saucy goodness. Pastafarians don't make hot takes against anyone else. Like CRT, like US democrats, they're just trying to do good; they only want progress, there's no possession with tearing down the bad or other.

To return to our seeming core disagreement, you said:

> Cynical "dunks" burnish your qualifications to your in-group:

This feels like turning a hunt for oppression into a reason to disregard people. Many groups deserved to be dunked on, BECAUSE THEY ARE CYNICAL. Because they are inaccessible, not open, not participating, not doing enough, doing bad, or outright acting in bad faith.

It's difficult to figure out exactly where any voice is positioned, but, critical review that says: "you are not being optimistic enough": that's (sometimes) not cynical. Just because review is negative does not make it cynical. One can have higher expectations & use those to stage critical reviews.

> it's not just HN. Cynical "dunks" burnish your qualifications... you'll get all your fellow in-group folks upvoting/retweeting/liking your "hot take". IMO this is the greatest threat of all

I've walked point by point through how I don't see your listed examples as bad or hazarous or cynical. There's due cynicism against bad, there's due well wishes for the good to be better. I'm not completely opposed- there's certainly a critical air about- but to me it's not the internet & a lot of those airs are resistive to oppressionaries, are optimistic in nature. It is a very critical time, absolutely, but I don't see much of the critiques as cynical or performative or harmful: I see them as part of a direly needed push out of the long rut society has been stuck in, & a drive towards better. And one that isn't trying to harm or damage, but to simply make aware, to share.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#62

One of the great frustrations in these debates, is the tendency to criticize a messenger who sees a cynical system. Instead of blaming the system for being cynical. Sometimes the most Optimistic people are shut out of debates, because they won't assume the system is optimized for a noncynical purpose. My suspicion is that this ostracization is what grows the cynicism out of control.

Yeah. When people notice that something is suspicious, they become complainers. And the complainer is always wrong.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#63
post #25

I don't think cynicism is just about stasis, but about spotting when optimistic messages are hiding a power-grabbing scheme of some kind. Or just being willing to 'follow the money', and look behind the curtain, etc. Plenty of new things are important developments, even when there are selfish actors behind them. But also plenty of new things are just scams.

OP here, if you're able to separate the act of "look behind the curtain" from the visceral feeling that things can change and you can be the one improving them - then I'm very happy for you. I personally found it hard to separate the two for many year, and fell in the pattern of unifying them. Cynical outlook has been a helpful protecting mechanism, though no longer as useful, as I'm trying to find and play more win-…

Yes maybe my definition is wrong, I consider myself slightly cynical (I lived to see the excitement of cyberspace turn into Facebook after all), but perhaps I mean skeptical, although to me what you're talking about is more nihilism.

There are some things that really don't change, and I guess that can be a source of cynicism. The poor will always be among you, lying politicians, the greedy rich, etc. But I'd argue that isn't cause for inaction, quite the opposite, though I can see nihilists just retreating to their beds in despair.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#64

But what do I mean by being cynical? When you’re conversing with someone, it often easy to detect the frame through which they view the world and the interaction with you. Cynics think that the world is never changing on a fundamental level, but it only changes cosmetically, and superficially. Cynics may look at some new trend and call it “lipstick on a pig”. According to cynics, the world operates in a certain way,…

Deluded self-assurance most reliably delivers success. Cynics and realists tend to not understand this and thus don't take enough risks when they should, and are confined to mediocre results (compared to their peers in similar situations).

Everyone always deludes oneself. Even cynics and realists end up having their own versions of the reality. Also, risk, success, and financial success are completely irrelevant to each other, thus cynical attitude really has nothing to do with it.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#65
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do not live up to expectations I think this might be the key. Have you heard this expression before: Disappointment = expectations - reality Unfortunately I'm not sure offhand where that saying originated, but I think it is true, at least for me. I'll spare you a lecture on it because, believe me, I'm no expert. But it is an expression I try to remind myself of from time to time to cope with people and things that…

Nothing wrong with having expectations. Things are supposed to be good. Marriages are supposed to be forever. Justice is supposed to be done. Politicians are supposed to be honest. Governments are supposed to look out for us. Companies are supposed to provide good products and services. Obviously reality falls short of expectations no matter what we do. Enough disappointment will demoralize anyone. It will shatter th…

I didn't mean to say it was wrong to have expectations.

I should have elaborated I guess, but tried to keep it short.

I have high expectations for people and things that are important and close to me, and low expectations for things not as important to me or out of my control.

It doesn't mean I don't care about some of those other things at all. It's just that I only have a limited amount of mental and emotional energy to spend, and I try to spend it wisely.

Edit: hmm, maybe I'm sort of a cynic if I have low expectations. But I don't really think of myself that way. I try to be optimistic and focus on things I can do and not dwell on what I can't.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#66
I think the OP (and some other people saying the same thing) are tired of all the criticism coming through the internet. Being unable to specifically name the aggressive audience, those people are just called cynics or pessimists, clearly based on their behaviors. However, to my eyes, it's just a whole bunch trolls, thus it's just an internet noise. I don't think there's anything we can do with it...

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#67
post #13

My unpopular opinion, have healthy dose of cynicism, optimism and pessimism. You will need to use them in different set of situations. And then there is the question of default, cultural differences. Show in the picture below :) https://imgur.com/gallery/GUcVw

Thinking everything (even the most) is distributed in a normal distribution is extremely optimistic.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#68
I'm pretty sure I fall into the definition of a cynic given in the piece

"according to cynics, the world operates in a certain way, the elites are always the same, and will always be the same. The cynics think we are always playing the same game that has always been played. For example, a cynic may think that media’s only purpose is to sells your attention to advertisers - like I did here. And often they might be right."

but I too be honest don't really see the problem with that kind of worldview. I'm not chronically depressed or antagonistic because of it, but I think I'd rather have what I'd consider a realistic and true view of the world as it is rather than anything else.

"One of the strongest medicines against cynical mindset which I’ve tried is to do a “no-complain challenge”. I find its effects to be enormous and durable for years. In this challenge, you move a bracelet from one wrist to the other when you catch yourself complaining. The goal is to make it 21 days without having move the wrist. "

Before you start prescribing medicine we need to agree that cynicism is an illness first, which is not so easily done. I think the author conflates people who are sort of angry or pessimistic because of their lot in life with his definition of a cynic. I take the cynical view because of what I perceive are fundamental aspects of human nature collectively, not my mood personally. I can beat that challenge without a problem because I rarely complain, or win the lottery tomorrow and it wouldn't really have an impact of my views on the way the world operates overall.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#69
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP here, if you're able to separate the act of "look behind the curtain" from the visceral feeling that things can change and you can be the one improving them - then I'm very happy for you. I personally found it hard to separate the two for many year, and fell in the pattern of unifying them. Cynical outlook has been a helpful protecting mechanism, though no longer as useful, as I'm trying to find and play more win-…

Yes maybe my definition is wrong, I consider myself slightly cynical (I lived to see the excitement of cyberspace turn into Facebook after all), but perhaps I mean skeptical, although to me what you're talking about is more nihilism. There are some things that really don't change, and I guess that can be a source of cynicism. The poor will always be among you, lying politicians, the greedy rich, etc. But I'd argue th…

Interesting point about nihilism, appreciate your discussion. I still identify as cynical in many domains, though I don't think of myself as nihilistic as the latter seems more absolute.

Re: things that really don't change, I'd say "until they do". Plenty of examples in history where the whole system switches to a different equilibrium point (for example as in "Inadequate Equilibria" book).

When I'm referring to cynicism, I'm talking about the difference between the mindset of "these will never change", vs "these are attractor points in the current social system, which all history so far have been used, but the system may have other equilibriums and solutions for which X=`the rich are not greedy`".

Hope that's helpful!

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#70

But what do I mean by being cynical? When you’re conversing with someone, it often easy to detect the frame through which they view the world and the interaction with you. Cynics think that the world is never changing on a fundamental level, but it only changes cosmetically, and superficially. Cynics may look at some new trend and call it “lipstick on a pig”. According to cynics, the world operates in a certain way,…

It's also so much more complicated than this. I've known more than one person who didn't act as a cynic, they outwardly preached and proselytized this sort of "change the world" viewpoint, in order to attract attention and twitter followers. In a professional context they wanted to play the part of a "visionary" or whatever, and always acted positive about change. Yet, if you really get to know them and manage to ask…

It has been my experience that the skill to be outwardly "visionary" and at the same time remain cynic at heart gets rewarded most handsomely, especially in corporate world. We all have been in those meetings, town halls and off-sites where all the right, inspiring words are routinely uttered and amazing examples of leadership are described. Yet, once you exit the meeting room and actually work with and get to know those leaders - you quickly realize that it is cold, hard, calculating cynicism (and thus true understanding of reality) is what that drives their (sometimes "behind the scenes") actions and results in conquering the corporate ladder. My personal level of respective incompetence has been reached when I found myself unable to spew that BS with conviction from a podium.
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