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Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#71

Post by dredmorbius »

sifar wrote: post #69
dredmorbius wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” -- George Bernard Shaw

I used to admire this but have come to realize it is true in certain context only, while the GP one is much more humble The key word here is change v/s progress. The classic example of this is commuting via car v/s bicycle. The staggering amount of resources dedicated to solving this problem can be termed as progress with better infrastructure, cars (self-driving even) - contrast it against the change that those who…

It's possible to be humble without surrendering completely.

I'm rather aware that change is difficult.

It's far more difficult if you give up before you begin.

And it's helpful to have an understanding of the problem and its space (see my long comment to this thread, and the failure / success chain). Often the obvious / simple solution won't work, though again, if you simply give up you'll never recognise that and seek other options.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#72

Post by akomtu »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #65
0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the first to be sent to the Gulags were also true believers. You should study your history. Marx wasn't the great intellectual you might think and Marxist Communism never ends well for anyone.

Trust me, I’m a libertarian communist meaning I oppose the use of the State or any force. There are no gulags nor prisons in my imagined future. Marx’s economic analysis of different ways to organize production is invaluable even in a completely voluntary society, which is what I advocate for. I want to build systems that help people the way Wikipedia helps people - in a “take it or leave it” totally voluntary way. E…

Regarding your "reasonable idea", does it account for real life constraints, namely greed, cruelty and other qualities found in humans today? Capitalism isn't great, but it works, while other models tend to fold under the weight of reality.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#73

Post by ZeroGravitas »

andrewstuart wrote: post #40
wombatmobile wrote: post #31

The fastest way to achieve this change would be to make a vast fortune, and buy enough politicians to change the laws to reflect your own concept of how society should work. The problem you may face next is the consequences of what you have done. Where will all those investment funds that were destined for housing end up instead? What will be the effects of that shift? Who will buy the politicians next, and what will…

>> The fastest way to achieve this change would be to make a vast fortune The irony is that had I made a vast fortune, I would likely not care about this issue. I've noticed that people who own houses don't give a second's thought to this issue, or they don't see it is a problem. In fact, the opposite - if you own a house then you want to opposite of what I am campaigning for - you want prices to keep skyrocketing to…

I think you've oversimplified there.

People nearer the end of their life and with no children who own houses are the big winners here.

If you own a home and want a bigger one, then the price rises hit you proportionately. If you want to move to another location, you may come out even but it adds a lot of drama to the process. You've probably overinvested in housing, because you see a need for a big house later and buying/renting your own current needs would hurt you later.

If your kids want to move out then you'll probably end up using your gains to get them onto the owner side of the equation.

So most people probably want to unwind this. The problem is (like climate change) one of 'collective action' (See Mancur Olson) in order for most to benefit they need to act together (your social movement) but therr will be small, concentrated pockets of power that can take advantage of the situation for their own benefit.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#75

Post by SequoiaHope »

akomtu wrote: post #72
SequoiaHope wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, I’m a libertarian communist meaning I oppose the use of the State or any force. There are no gulags nor prisons in my imagined future. Marx’s economic analysis of different ways to organize production is invaluable even in a completely voluntary society, which is what I advocate for. I want to build systems that help people the way Wikipedia helps people - in a “take it or leave it” totally voluntary way. E…

Regarding your "reasonable idea", does it account for real life constraints, namely greed, cruelty and other qualities found in humans today? Capitalism isn't great, but it works, while other models tend to fold under the weight of reality.

Yes.

Meanwhile, I hear that "capitalism works" but we have tens of thousands of Americans dying each year due to lack of basic medical care, our students are saddled with educational debt that the boomer generation did not have to pay, people cannot survive working full time on minimum wage, and our politicians are pocketing huge financial gain to avoid a rapid conversion to renewable energy or affordable health care.

If you call that "working" then let me say we can do much much better.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#76

Post by sifar »

dredmorbius wrote: post #71
sifar wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to admire this but have come to realize it is true in certain context only, while the GP one is much more humble The key word here is change v/s progress. The classic example of this is commuting via car v/s bicycle. The staggering amount of resources dedicated to solving this problem can be termed as progress with better infrastructure, cars (self-driving even) - contrast it against the change that those who…

It's possible to be humble without surrendering completely. I'm rather aware that change is difficult. It's far more difficult if you give up before you begin. And it's helpful to have an understanding of the problem and its space (see my long comment to this thread, and the failure / success chain). Often the obvious / simple solution won't work, though again, if you simply give up you'll never recognise that and se…

If you hit a mountain that you cannot climb or tunnel through, you simply go around it - you don't try to move it or worse start a movement to move it.

It is not about surrendering or giving up. There is difference between when you have to stand up for something, when you find yourself in a situation where you have to go beyond yourself and where you "want" to be a hero. This myth of the hero needs to die. Think about it, a society that doesn't need heroes is a better one.

I am not sure if you realize but there is nothing humble about starting a social movement to "change the world" - which is what the original question was about. Engineered v/s emerged - one is hubris, the other one is just is. I wish one could ask all the successful people who "started" a social movement (as opposed to one that emerged), whether with the hindsight of how it played out over the decades, would they still have done it.

To paraphrase the life comment - change happens while you are busy wanting to create it.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#77

Post by justsaying9 »

dang wrote: post #56
justsaying9 wrote: post #26

I read through the replies here, and as expected, none of them have an actual solution to this problem; which is to be expected, since this is a geek website where none of these people understand markets or economics, (and only half understand computers), so you're asking the wrong crowd. The actual answer is: do nothing at all. Simply sit back and wait for one year. I promise you, the problem will solve itself. It's…

We've banned this account for using HN primarily for flamewar. We have to ban such accounts, because it's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll use HN as intended in the future. The guidelines are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

[dead]

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#78

Post by 0xbadc0de5 »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #65
0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the first to be sent to the Gulags were also true believers. You should study your history. Marx wasn't the great intellectual you might think and Marxist Communism never ends well for anyone.

Trust me, I’m a libertarian communist meaning I oppose the use of the State or any force. There are no gulags nor prisons in my imagined future. Marx’s economic analysis of different ways to organize production is invaluable even in a completely voluntary society, which is what I advocate for. I want to build systems that help people the way Wikipedia helps people - in a “take it or leave it” totally voluntary way. E…

Trust in good intentions is a huge red flag any time communism is being discussed. I'd like to believe that you are approaching this from good intentions and that you honestly can't see the horrific results that your proposed political/economic system would bring about - but there are just so many corpses tied to attempts to implement communism that anyone proposing it in serious conversation either does not fully understand the full history of it, or they are intentionally ignoring it for their own purposes.

Take for example your use of "libertarian communist." These are mutually incompatible ideologies. Libertarianism promotes maximum individual liberty (freedom). Communism by its very nature limits personal liberty to the maximum extent possible. You cannot have both because nature of communism will immediately begin to erode all liberties you may have envisioned.

No gulags or prisons? But where do you put the people who oppose the ideas you are proposing? But you will convince them your ideas are pure and you just want the best for everyone so you won't need to lock them away or dispose of them. But what about those who don't want to be convinced? Or the people who just don't like being told what to do? How will you incentivize them? There's a lot of people like that out there. You'd need an entire bureaucracy to promote your ideas to the non-believers. But some people would be silent dissenters - stirring up doubt and pursuading others away from your ideas through less public means. You'd need a way to keep tabs on these people to make sure they don't try to overthrow your administration before its had a chance to succeed. And what if they do find evidence of a conspiracy to abandon your ideas? Because your ideas are pure and the outcomes are expected to be glorious, anyone who rejects them must be...

And what of the people who do support you? How will you reward achievement and promote innovation in a system without means of reward? How will you keep them loyal? You will find the solution is quite simple actually - a system without reward mechanisms still has mechanisms for punishment.

So no - communism is not just misunderstood, it is not just implemented badly, it is not just attempted by the wrong people. It is rotten to the core. It is a fractally bad idea.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#79

Post by dredmorbius »

sifar wrote: post #76
dredmorbius wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to be humble without surrendering completely. I'm rather aware that change is difficult. It's far more difficult if you give up before you begin. And it's helpful to have an understanding of the problem and its space (see my long comment to this thread, and the failure / success chain). Often the obvious / simple solution won't work, though again, if you simply give up you'll never recognise that and se…

If you hit a mountain that you cannot climb or tunnel through, you simply go around it - you don't try to move it or worse start a movement to move it. It is not about surrendering or giving up. There is difference between when you have to stand up for something, when you find yourself in a situation where you have to go beyond yourself and where you "want" to be a hero. This myth of the hero needs to die. Think abou…

Your allegory of the mountain is precisely what I'm getting at.

Attempting the physically or logically impossible, or the effectively counterproductive. The point is to identify a problem, an achievable preferred state, and to work toward that.

Note that even towering mountains, given time, technique, or resources, can be overpassed, leapt over, or tunneled through. And that there are projects which take generations. The Swiss Alps are now laced with roads (rail, cable, and automobile), overflown by aircraft, and pierced by tunnels.

The best heros aren't of the Charge of the Light Brigade variety. They're the ones who identify a viable method and exploit it --- Odysseus and his Horse, Turing and his cipher-breaking tools, Gandhi and his Salt March.

A social change that doesn't need to be engineered ... doesn't require heros. One that won't happen without a specific concerted effort, or which might tip in any number of directions with some vastly preferable to others, do. I'd argue that part of the genius and heroism comes from recognising such loci, recognising the societal magnitude of the task, and searching for a solution space. As with scientific, engineering, and business innovation, even failures teach lessons, and diversifying investments over multiple strategies --- not in the blind sense of blindly inspiring cannon fodder to charge into fire (the Light Brigade, again), but to seek out more favourable options and avoid obvious low-probability / high-risk attempts --- is all but certainly the way to go.

And again: declaring defeat in advance, or throwing up ones hands and declaring that "all is foreordained" won't get you there.

I do advice research (see again previous) and marshalling and conserving your own energies. But not doing nothing at all.

Even slow moving water and the blowing wind can, in time, cut through or wear down that mountain.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#80

Post by SequoiaHope »

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #78
SequoiaHope wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, I’m a libertarian communist meaning I oppose the use of the State or any force. There are no gulags nor prisons in my imagined future. Marx’s economic analysis of different ways to organize production is invaluable even in a completely voluntary society, which is what I advocate for. I want to build systems that help people the way Wikipedia helps people - in a “take it or leave it” totally voluntary way. E…

Trust in good intentions is a huge red flag any time communism is being discussed. I'd like to believe that you are approaching this from good intentions and that you honestly can't see the horrific results that your proposed political/economic system would bring about - but there are just so many corpses tied to attempts to implement communism that anyone proposing it in serious conversation either does not fully un…

> No gulags or prisons? But where do you put the people who oppose the ideas you are proposing?

The same place the creators of Wikipedia put people who don’t like Wikipedia - nowhere, they don’t do anything to people who don’t want to participate.

> But what about those who don't want to be convinced? Or the people who just don't like being told what to do? How will you incentivize them?

My system is purely voluntary and it works with the participation of a small number of volunteers. You really have not appreciated that when I say it is libertarian I actually know what I am saying.

> You'd need a way to keep tabs on these people to make sure they don't try to overthrow your administration before its had a chance to succeed. And what if they do find evidence of a conspiracy to abandon your ideas?

You’re really letting your mind wander. Again think of Wikipedia. If someone wants to stop contributing, absolutely nothing will happen to them.

> So no - communism is not just misunderstood

At least on your end, the misunderstanding is significant. It would be great if, instead of telling me libertarian communism is an impossibility and wholly misinterpreting my goals, you kept an open mind and considered what a libertarian communism would be like.

Do you know about the Sikhs in India? How they produce and give away over one million free meals a day across the country? How they have massive Langar kitchens that produce 100,000 free meals a day? I am a robotics engineer, and a damn good one. I want to create facilities which can produce tens of thousands of delicious healthy organic meals per day to distribute for free or with a payment optional model. I want to provide free community robotics classes so the members of the community can learn useful skills to help repair and improve the machine and to get better jobs.

I call what I aim for communism because it is based on Marxist principles of community ownership of the means of production, and based on the ideals of libertarian communists from the past (there is a long history of that term going back to the 1800’s and you should look it up before so horribly misunderstanding it).

You could say “giving things to people in need is capitalism! It’s charity!” And the truth is the meaning of the terms overlaps. And we can both be right. But I follow in the libertarian communist tradition and I’m quite proud of that. I don’t usually hear capitalists saying every person deserves food and shelter and clothes no matter whether they can or do work.

I want to help create a world where having a job is totally optional. And we can do that through concentrated automation of core human needs with machines owned by the community they serve. Community ownership of the means of production. Imagine how much freedom a person would have if they did not have to work! They would have the freedom to spend time with loved ones, to paint, to read, to bike. For the average person this would be a life changing situation. One that our current form of capitalism seems to have no interest in producing.

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