Americans overestimate social mobility in their country • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#331

Post by rpmisms » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

jmeister wrote: post #204

rpmisms wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unschooled, no college, committed parents. All I needed.

The last part is priceless. From a great article I read recently: “A solid, two-parent home is critical for a child’s future. There is simply no shortcut." “ Poverty, even extreme poverty, is surmountable. What is nearly impossible to overcome is the instability—the psychological havoc—created by broken homes. Especially for boys.” https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1456287662243991560

I agree with this strongly, but saying this publicly is taboo. Implying that children need a nuclear family is widely considered ignorant at best, bigoted at worst.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#332

Post by rpmisms » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

anonfornoreason wrote: post #258

analog31 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trades are oversold in the US. Many of them are physically demanding if not dangerous. Many of them are dominated by smaller businesses that are practically exempt from labor law enforcement. Many are strongly dependent on the housing cycle. Since many of those businesses are also family-owned, a person without the right connections can face an uphill battle getting a decent job. I believe that the opioid epidemi…

you are moving the goalpost here. good luck finding a job paying well that's not a trade or a technical job requiring a college degree. grew up blue collar, still spend plenty of time with blue collar folks. just like there are fat unhealthy desk workers, there are beaten up tradesmen who didn't take care of their bodies. there are also healthy examples of both. finally, these are required jobs that make our society…

Out of curiosity, would you consider programming a trade? I'm a degreeless developer, and I definitely treat my work like trade work.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#333

Post by danaris » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

ianbutler wrote: post #326

DarylZero wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL where are these "people who do nothing"

There are multiple people I’ve known who do the bare minimum to continue their existence and from the ones I’ve known I’m sure they’d contribute nothing if they were able to. I don’t consider it a particularly valid way to live. There are a lot more who do try to make their lives better though.

So...the idle rich, then?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#334

Post by danaris » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #190

endisneigh wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imagine equating wealth to attraction, lol. I understand your point, but what an inane example.

Why is it inane? Handsomeness is something you're born with, and most people assert that wealth is, too.

My handsomeness cannot, in any meaningful way, be taken away to help you be more handsome, no matter how handsome I am or how ugly you are.

Your wealth can absolutely be taken away to help me afford food, shelter, and healthcare.

Furthermore, my handsomeness does not in any way directly gain me the aforementioned things needed to survive and thrive. Your wealth absolutely does.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#335

Post by danaris » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #103

twobitshifter wrote: post #95

I think the first step is to admit we have a problem. People don’t like the United States being labeled as anything less than exceptional. If you look at the Amazon workers, Uber drivers, door dashers, etc in this country it’s amazing how hard people can work and not get ahead. 2nd and 3rd jobs can be necessary to just make ends meet. The story that hard work is all it takes in America does need to be questioned.

Talk with any patriotic person and you'll quickly notice that American exceptionalism relies on comparing the United States to the worst countries in the world and ignoring the existence of other developed nations. Eventually followed by "well at least we can talk about it, unlike " and so therefore all indiscretions must be absolved and ignorable since we have the "unique" ability to criticize the government at all,…

...or, worse, when a comparison with another developed country is brought up, its successes are simply rejected as the result of eeeeevil socialism, which destroys freedom, don't you know.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#336

Post by vmception » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 1:44 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #335

vmception wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk with any patriotic person and you'll quickly notice that American exceptionalism relies on comparing the United States to the worst countries in the world and ignoring the existence of other developed nations. Eventually followed by "well at least we can talk about it, unlike " and so therefore all indiscretions must be absolved and ignorable since we have the "unique" ability to criticize the government at all,…

...or, worse, when a comparison with another developed country is brought up, its successes are simply rejected as the result of eeeeevil socialism, which destroys freedom, don't you know.

or a generic assumption of high taxes in a completely different tax system, while not understanding their own tax system

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#337

Post by anonfornoreason » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

rpmisms wrote: post #332

anonfornoreason wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are moving the goalpost here. good luck finding a job paying well that's not a trade or a technical job requiring a college degree. grew up blue collar, still spend plenty of time with blue collar folks. just like there are fat unhealthy desk workers, there are beaten up tradesmen who didn't take care of their bodies. there are also healthy examples of both. finally, these are required jobs that make our society…

Out of curiosity, would you consider programming a trade? I'm a degreeless developer, and I definitely treat my work like trade work.

by the colloquial definition, no. "the trades" usually mean plumber, electrician, sheet metal worker, welder, home construction, etc. skilled labor with an apprenticeship program, often union backed.

I would consider any person engaged in skilled work that requires learning or training to be a tradesman, so yes a programmer fits in my opinion.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#338

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #318

bawolff wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually, if the wealth divide becomes too great and ossified, the logical thing for the poor to do is have a violent revolution (since there is no other way to advance their station in life). This sucks for basically everyone, rich or poor. I think we all have a selfish interest in making sure it doesn't come to that.

Sure, but a big wealth divide does not imply ossification, it just means it's a longer path to get to the top. You can have a big divide and still have mobility.

You could have that, but the US just has a big divide and not much mobility, despite the folk tales that say we do.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#339

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #333

ianbutler wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple people I’ve known who do the bare minimum to continue their existence and from the ones I’ve known I’m sure they’d contribute nothing if they were able to. I don’t consider it a particularly valid way to live. There are a lot more who do try to make their lives better though.

So...the idle rich, then?

[deleted]

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#340

Post by ianbutler » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #333

ianbutler wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple people I’ve known who do the bare minimum to continue their existence and from the ones I’ve known I’m sure they’d contribute nothing if they were able to. I don’t consider it a particularly valid way to live. There are a lot more who do try to make their lives better though.

So...the idle rich, then?

Sure, free loaders are free loaders. Not sure why you think I wouldn’t uniformly apply that brush. They’re just as invalid in my world view, maybe more even because they have the easy means to do… anything beneficial really.