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Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

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721–730 of 792 posts

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you deeply underestimate the influence of the corporate media in influencing the opinions of the masses. But apparently America went through something like this right after the Civil War where everyone had an opinion on everything and all that led to was corporations amassing power for a half century.

That affects you when trying to get elected. I'd argue a strong candidate who takes no BS is something that the people are clamoring for. Trump fit that bill to an extant but he was an idiot and a bigot. He had a real opportunity to enact real change but he blew it.

Sure I would love a truth-telling candidate. But no existing party machine will accept such a candidate and even if elected no existing party will work with such a candidate.

And in the unlikely event you create a genuine third party, the current two parties will drop all their differences to destroy that party.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Supports single payer healthcare" is used against Sanders in the primary to instill fear in Democratic primary voters that he'll be too far to the left for moderates and then lose to a Republican. It wouldn't be effective, or attempted, if he was already the President. They could easily have used the same style of attacks that were used against Trump. "Kids in cages" was the case under Obama, and Trump, and Biden, b…

Well that ruined my day... you're right of course. Putting it that way just confirms my belief that the best course is to dissolve this union. Let's chop it into about a dozen pieces. That would be better for Americans, and also for non-Americans. Raytheon would lose some business...

The smallest US state has a larger economy than some countries. Fixing it doesn't require dissolution of shared citizenship, what we need to do is stop doing so many things at the federal level.

Why do we need a huge federal military in peacetime when we have the state national guard? Why do we need federal welfare programs instead of state welfare programs? It's not an argument against having a military or having welfare programs, it's a question of where to do it. And the US federal government is the wrong place, because it's too big.

"Laboratories of democracy" are a public good, but you can't have them if Uncle Sam is sucking up the public's money and giving it to Raytheon and drug companies and whoever instead of letting the states and the people have that money to implement a diverse set of independent programs and allowing citizens to decide which they want to live under.

Most of which was caused by 20th century screwing up of the original design. US Senators were originally elected by the state legislatures, to represent the states and temper federal power. The 16th amendment, federal taxation without apportionment, provides the perverse incentive for federal spending to increase without bound because you then have the large majority of states as net recipients of federal spending which is coming from a handful of states who are outnumbered. And guess which ones they are -- you wouldn't know it by asking their representatives because given the setup, they have no incentive not to feed from the same trough even while their residents are getting fleeced.

The good news is most of the taker states are still around breakeven and many of those (like Texas) would likely support fixing this if the likes of New York and Massachusetts would take notice that doing so is strongly in their own interest. (The biggest takers are the swing states, for reasons that should be obvious, but the red and blue states outnumber the purple states -- if they'd work together.)

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#723
post #570

Assange is sort of my barometer for US politicians views on the 1st amendment. If they don't support a pardon, clemency, or an end to the harassing investigation into him then I know they are bereft of any moral compass and will happily shred the US constitution for campaign contributions.

Both a pardon and clemency imply that he committed crimes and the politician is just in favor of forgiving him for public support. This could still have damming repercussions for a free press, as his case could set precedent that publishing documents is illegal. The charges should be dropped.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that is the information that he is being punished for is that video, you clearly did not look at what he leaked closely enough. Likewise, if you think leaking the pentagon papers is the same as leaking all diplomatic cables and operational communications from a period of time is the same thing, not sure I can say much to change your opinion.

> Likewise, if you think leaking the pentagon papers is the same as leaking all diplomatic cables and operational communications from a period of time is the same thing, not sure I can say much to change your opinion. It would be very difficult, because you believe that journalists enabling the distribution of secret government documents means they're not journalists, they're activists. That equally condemns the Pent…

Many corporations publish "leaked" documents because they want to make a profit and they realize that it appears to a certain demographic. They aren't doing any activism. They are just trying to make a buck.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#725
post #143
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rehashing US war crimes, which would certainly come up, won't be great for the prosecution either. Assuming the judge doesn't block that line of argument.

He's charged with espionage for material related to a war crime. It's not a peripheral issue.

Ellsberg was not permitted to mention what was released in his defense, Assange likely won't either.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#726
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure it is everyone's responsibility to inform the world about war crimes when that information is brought to our attention.

Everyone is responsible for everything that is unacceptable, but it doesn't really help to try to enforce that. Scoping to a reasonable level, publishers' primary job is to review and filter information for quality, safety, and fitness for mass consumption. Assange and WikiLeaks explicitly do not do that. At best, they are a distributor.

I've never heard of any law that requires a publisher to review / filter information for public consumption. The only responsibility that a publisher at a capitalist media outlet has is to make sure their publications bring in a profit. That is their only "obligation".

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#727
post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is responsible for everything that is unacceptable, but it doesn't really help to try to enforce that. Scoping to a reasonable level, publishers' primary job is to review and filter information for quality, safety, and fitness for mass consumption. Assange and WikiLeaks explicitly do not do that. At best, they are a distributor.

I've never heard of any law that requires a publisher to review / filter information for public consumption. The only responsibility that a publisher at a capitalist media outlet has is to make sure their publications bring in a profit. That is their only "obligation".

> I've never heard of any law that requires a publisher to review / filter information for public consumption

The law generally views the publisher as responsible for unlawful (defamatory, copyright infringing, etc.) content without evidence of specific knowledge, whereas distributors are generally liable only when they have specific knowledge of the facts that make the content unlawful. This, in effect, makes publishers responsible for reviewing/filtering content, because if they fail to do so, they will be held responsible.

That's the whole source of significanxe of, e.g., the section 230 protection against hosts or other users of online services meeting certain descriptions being treated as the publisher of other-user submitted content.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what the HN thread looked like last time. People were claiming the judge was corrupt, colluding with the Americans, and/or was herself deciding issues in a pre-determined way when she didn’t accept the “political crimes” argument from his defence after her very thorough analysis of the treaty. It was pretty awful, and that was a judgment that denied his extradition! The truth is the issues in this case are si…

The legal aspects may be hard to understand, and we may not precisely understand the underlying motivations of either Assange or the government, but the general dynamic is not hard to figure out. Assange spat in the face of the giant, and the law is now only an obstacle for the punishment they want to dole out. My country is throwing its weight around like a petulant bully. I'm starting to accept that lies grease the…

I don’t think you will see any real discussion on those points until it goes to trial. The case here barely touched on those things at all, and if that’s the entire frame you have, then you are missing that extradition is a matter of international relations over anything else. You’re talking about the US as “the government” but Assange and US are before the UK courts.

> they went straight to trying to punish Assange with dirty tricks… no plans to improve

I take “they” to mean the US, right?

> That speaks to a pervasive lack of integrity, and so has undermined confidence in the fairness of these legal proceedings.

The US’ “dirty tricks” somehow implicate the UK court system and the integrity of their judges? This is the exact illogical step I was referring to from the last thread. If you do not understand that the Americans are in a UK court, asking another sovereign power to let them have him, you should not be commenting on it at all. Even if you made the argument that the UK’s government employed dirty tricks too, you would be ignoring the fact that their democracy has an incredibly rigid separation between executive and judicial power. Your understanding has lumped together the American executive government with the UK judiciary, which would be a stunning display of ignorance were we not on the Orange Website, where it is just the usual amount of ignorance.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mankind has reached a point where it realized that certain rights (natural rights [1]) are not really arbitrary cultural constructs, but more akin to the laws of nature. It's a moral system just like how Big Judge in Sky is a moral system. You're only determining what's good and bad in accordance with this one moral system. And most of humanity does not. > Again an attitude that can be used to justify anything. Of…

> It's a moral system just like how Big Judge in Sky is a moral system. You're only determining what's good and bad in accordance with this one moral system. And most of humanity does not. Well, at the very least "Big Judge in Sky" is not in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, so there's that. The fact that most of humanity most of the time fails short of our best understanding of morality doesn't mean that th…

I think they meant that if anyone had the power to protect people's rights, they would also have the power to violate people's rights, and they would use that power in the same way as today's rights violators. If so, I think they are absolutely right on that point, and it holds true regardless of what you believe those rights are.

I certainly think some things are inherently wrong, but doing those things are not any more difficult than doing other things, and it's probably easier to do them than it is to prevent them. We can't rely on an organization or institution to protect us because any such group will always promote and protect each other first. Instead, we need to promote a culture of direct action on an individual level, praise and encourage whistleblowers, activists, saboteurs and others who do what they think is right to weaken the power of institutions over individuals. We won't always agree with their goals, judgement, and morals, but as long as they don't use methods that are unequivocally wrong (such as violence against non-violent people), we should support them because individual action is in aggregate much better (and much less dangerous) than institutional actions.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#730

This should be a sobering view of how the world really works. Above a certain threshold, every veneer of civilization vanishes no matter what the country (some have a higher threshold than others). At this level, only power matters. And the first rule of power is: Don't embarrass the powerful unless you can call on a lot of power to defend yourself. Laws can't protect you; they can be thwarted and bent, and the legal…

This is ridiculous. Assange is alleged to have cooperated with a member of the US forces to release gigabytes of diplomatic cables etc. - which is possibly a crime. In all but rare cases, you absolutely do not have the right to break into systems of national security and release arbitrary information under the guise of 'journalism'. His extradition is perfectly rational, legal and judicially legitimate. The Abu Garib…

Would you feel the same if it was the Chinese or Russian government who wanted to prosecute a foreigner for allegedly helping one of their whistleblowers, or for just criticizing their government? Unless you want Americans sent to Beijing for violating the Hong Kong national security law, which applies to everyone in the world according to the Chinese government, I don't see how you can invoke 'the law' against Assange.

Regardless, laws are completely irrelevant to what's right or wrong. Laws are basically just threats, and it's not wrong to do something just because someone threatens to harm you. It doesn't matter if that someone is the Chinese government, the US government, the Taliban government, or some local street gang.

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