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‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

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Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#61

Post by DFHippie »

mmmpop wrote: post #56
DFHippie wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you nailed it. The people patriotically spreading covid, attacking our system of government, preventing any action on climate change, and so forth don't actually think they're doing the right thing . They just feel so slighted and aggrieved, so disrespected, that they see harming their uppity neighbors as the greatest good. They are Ahab and the libs are their white whale. The thing is, people don't respect y…

Thanks for proving my point, I'd perhaps rather watch the world melt than have your sneering ass running the show. I kid, but it's a close call.

It's fun to think I'm running the show, isn't it. Yes, I fully own my unbounded contempt for the fragile-ego'ed patriots tearing the country apart. But I'm not running the show, am I? And that doesn't matter. The people running the show, Clinton and Obama and Biden and so forth, speak in diplomatic terms and offer olive branches and try to see the other side and it earns them nothing but vilification. Because the fragile egos listen to people who want to keep them angry and suspicious. Who treats them with greater contempt, the politicians who try to work on their behalf while being burned in effigy or the propagandists who lie to them to keep them aggrieved?

And how is anyone supposed to respect someone whose values are so askew and who is so easily led?

This is nothing new. Here's Lincoln on the same topic:

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/cooperunionadd...

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#62

Post by downWidOutaFite »

starik36 wrote: post #55
9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be surprised if we haven’t already passed such a tipping point. For me, the exclusion of Lawrence Lessig from political debates was a big indicator that things were already off the rails.

I think we've had many "tipping" that keep pushing the denominator further down. The first time I saw that in my adult life was the memorial service for late Minnesota senator Paul Wellstone 20 years ago. The speakers turned it into a political rally. It was beyond distasteful. For some reason, it really stuck in my mind as the end of decency.

It's funny as someone on the left I also remember the death of Paul Wellstone as a turning point. But to me it was the fact that the right wing media had become so powerful that they could manufacture whatever outrage they wanted. The manufactured outrage was that the funeral of the most passionate progressive senator, days before his election, became an expression of people wanting to continue his legacy.

Everybody always says the liberal media is so powerful but I don't think it holds a candle to the right wing media's power to manufacture constant outrage. These live with constant popular uprisings manufactured by the right such as anti-CRT, anti-mask, anti-immigrant. The left has nowhere near that kind of power.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#63

Post by DFHippie »

sneak wrote: post #53
ianmcgowan wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"both sides" hardly seems fair in this context. If your spouse is drunk and about to get in a car and drive you absolutely need to win that argument.

I am talking about the partisan-aligned culture war currently waging in the USA. It takes two to tango.

The problem with this analogy is that it takes only one to stop tangoing. It takes two to stop fighting. Curling up in a fetal position doesn't end the fight; and it rewards the party who keeps fighting until they are satisfied.

If a rapist assaults someone, that person can perhaps bring the violence to a more rapid end by yielding to the rapist, but we don't hold the two parties equally at fault. We don't tell the victim, "It takes two to tango." I am not saying these are perfectly parallel situations. I am trying to get you to see how your account is simplistic.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#64

Post by analyte123 »

DFHippie wrote: post #20

Well, we're at a point where foreign attacks on our elections are a partisan issue, the response to a pandemic which has killed some 770k citizens is a partisan issue, whether or not we can use democratic elections to select our leaders is a partisan issue, to say nothing of catastrophic climate change. But then, for much of the first century of the existence of the US whether or not some humans could own others as s…

The partisanship in this comment itself is absolutely bursting at the seams. It isn’t civil to draw lines and define reality in a way that your viewpoints about are simple common sense facts that everyone can agree on, whereas “their” viewpoints are fuming with blind partisan animus. Most of your items have plenty of room for disagreement in terms of interpretation of events, policy responses, values, and more.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#65

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy »

motohagiography wrote: post #60
blakesterz wrote: post #16

> “If we reach that point, we cannot unite even in the face of war, climate change, pandemics, or other challenges to the survival of our society.” We no longer have differences in opinion, we have differences of reality. Climate Change, pandemics, January 6th... the list goes on and on now.

It may be worth noting that such was the polarization of Great Britain in WWII that Ireland remained officially neutral while London was being bombarded with rockets, and they went right back to bombing each other within a few years of the external threat being removed. This is the level of polarization and sectarianism I've been warning about for years, and we're way deeper into it than I think most people realize.…

> t may be worth noting that such was the polarization of Great Britain in WWII that Ireland remained officially neutral while London was being bombarded with rockets, and they went right back to bombing each other within a few years of the external threat being removed.

This is the first I’ve heard of this. Do you have any references that dig into this time and context that you could share?

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#66

Post by mensetmanusman »

motohagiography wrote: post #60
blakesterz wrote: post #16

> “If we reach that point, we cannot unite even in the face of war, climate change, pandemics, or other challenges to the survival of our society.” We no longer have differences in opinion, we have differences of reality. Climate Change, pandemics, January 6th... the list goes on and on now.

It may be worth noting that such was the polarization of Great Britain in WWII that Ireland remained officially neutral while London was being bombarded with rockets, and they went right back to bombing each other within a few years of the external threat being removed. This is the level of polarization and sectarianism I've been warning about for years, and we're way deeper into it than I think most people realize.…

The viral idea is already there^, it will just play out slowly over centuries as the demographic shift occurs.

^love thy enemy

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#67

Post by nradov »

georgeecollins wrote: post #26
neurobot123 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The polarization is mostly between those who trust mainstream media and those who don’t. Not sure what can be done with media pushing disinformation for political reasons, any regulation there would risk violating the 1st amendment.

>> any regulation there would risk violating the 1st amendment. Perhaps, but its a risk the US took for decades (1938 - 1985) and the political climate was less divisive during that period. You can't say "nothing can be done" when things can and have been done that we don't do anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_fairness_doctrine

The Fairness Doctrine existed only because broadcast spectrum was finite. It never applied to other types of media.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#68

Post by Nevermark »

xupybd wrote: post #15
belval wrote: post #10

I am skeptical of the framing of the original work in the article. If you actually read the original research, it boils down to building a model on willingness to cooperate based on differing views and observing that past a specific point cooperation is no longer possible. This is not uninteresting for the scientist in me, but the kind of large generalization made in the article are simply not supported by the work n…

This might be a positive. Maybe modern society allows for more diversity of thought?

I don't think diverse thinking is equivalent to partisan conflict. Lots of constructive groups have very diverse thinking.

Likewise, many groups with minimal differences, i.e. group think, may still fight intensely over those small differences.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#69

Post by disambiguation »

umvi wrote: post #46

It seems to me that the pandemic itself is not that big of a threat to society - after all, even if we did absolutely nothing and went about business as usual, some small X% of the population would die, hospitals might be forced to do bed rationing for a while (leading to more deaths), but the vast majority of citizens would get better in a few weeks due to their natural immune systems. 20-30 years in the future you…

I think it's more than that.

Consider the past 2 decades. 9/11, the war on terror, the 2008 crash, the 2016 election, and most recently covid.

Have we recovered from any of these?

I don't think this story is about a society that's tearing itself apart, but one that is unable to handle or heal from traumatic events.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#70

Post by sagarm »

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #47
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Maybe . Or maybe that triggers the civil war. Look, it's possible. It could even be what we need. But for it to work, we'd need wisdom and honest compromise, not sound-bite driven trench-warfare politics. Under current conditions, I see a low probability that it would work.

Or perhaps mandatory civil service? https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/31/us-democracy-mandatory-...

In a country where a sizable minority feel that simply wearing masks during a pandemic is an unconscionable infringement of personal liberty?
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