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‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model
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Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the culpability stands directly at the feet of the culture warriors on both sides of this partisan divide Both sides? Huh. > Does the previous sentence upset you and make you want to point fingers at your opposing partisan group? If so, you may be part of the problem I am describing. Interesting. Another way to think about it is that if you always punish everyone for anyone's malfeasance, there is no penalty for ma…
Sometimes the "correct" people are such insufferable, hypocritical assholes that the other side will slice its neck to spite the body, regardless of how incorrect they may be. If people can't see this game of chicken being a pretty sizable part of our issues then they should check their own biases.
I think you nailed it. The people patriotically spreading covid, attacking our system of government, preventing any action on climate change, and so forth don't actually think they're doing the right thing. They just feel so slighted and aggrieved, so disrespected, that they see harming their uppity neighbors as the greatest good. They are Ahab and the libs are their white whale.
The thing is, people don't respect you when you behave like that, when your ego is more important than their life. You can't make people respect you by hitting them. There's the tipping point right there.
Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
The polarization is mostly between those who trust mainstream media and those who don’t. Not sure what can be done with media pushing disinformation for political reasons, any regulation there would risk violating the 1st amendment.
The mainstream media is very much part of the problem. For example, both the idea that the US could've avoided a substantial proportion of those pandemic-related deaths and people's beliefs about how it could've done so are the result of systematic, partisan misinformation by trusted publications like the New York Times about how the US compares to other countries, what those other countries have been doing, how well…
I can't recall if it was satirical news article, photoshopped meme, or real thing, but it went something like this:
> AMISH COMMUNITY UNAFFECTED BY COVID-19 > Reporters asked a local community member how they have avoided the deadly pandemic despite interacting with known carriers. The man responded, "We don't have Internet or TV."
Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
The mainstream media is very much part of the problem. For example, both the idea that the US could've avoided a substantial proportion of those pandemic-related deaths and people's beliefs about how it could've done so are the result of systematic, partisan misinformation by trusted publications like the New York Times about how the US compares to other countries, what those other countries have been doing, how well…
What are the measures by which the US is doing better than continental Europe? What are some things the NYT was publishing but stopped publishing when they didn't fit the defeatist storyline? I don't doubt that partisan propaganda spread as news is among the chief reasons the US is at war with itself right now, but you lose me when you pick the NYT as the chief culprit.
Overall, the US seems to be doing about as well as continental Europe in ways that actually matter, like deaths. What the NYT did was cherry-picking figures - for example, for a while last winter they kept comparing Spanish cases to Florida cases to downplay the Spanish wave as less bad, even though the trajectory of the Spanish outbreak was much scarier, and then suddenly forgot about that comparison when Spain passed them. (The Spanish press pointed out that their outbreak was worse than the US based on the NYT's metric and described it as such, which is partly how I noticed it happen.) I think that was a replacement for some other, broader comparison between the US and Europe they dropped earlier on after it stopped making the US look bad. It was really blatant too - they kept on reusing the same comparisions week after week as the gap gradually narrowed, and then when it would've flipped poof that metric went away.
Similarly, they stopped comparing the actual per-capita level of Covid testing in South Korea and the USA when the US passed them and not only started using meaningless metrics like test postivity (the two countries had... very different ideas on who to test, which didn't include most people with symptoms in South Korea) but outright claimed it was a lie to say the US was now the country doing more Covid testing using the swapped metric. I'm pretty sure there were quite a few others too which I've forgotten about or just missed. Haven't really been following their reporting so much lately.
Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
The polarization is mostly between those who trust mainstream media and those who don’t. Not sure what can be done with media pushing disinformation for political reasons, any regulation there would risk violating the 1st amendment.
The mainstream media is very much part of the problem. For example, both the idea that the US could've avoided a substantial proportion of those pandemic-related deaths and people's beliefs about how it could've done so are the result of systematic, partisan misinformation by trusted publications like the New York Times about how the US compares to other countries, what those other countries have been doing, how well…
> One thing that stood out to me lately is that their readers evidently think Europe did much better, from the comments section - and it's obvious why...
People who post in comments sections are a tiny unrepresentative subset of readers.
In my experience, the NYT comment section is mostly filled with garbage by partisans who cannot tolerate or process anything except that which fits their chosen perspective. For proof, just read comments attached to opinion articles by their token non-liberals. I don't think anything of value can be inferred from such a self-selected dysfunctional group.
Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model
#46It seems to me that the pandemic itself is not that big of a threat to society - after all, even if we did absolutely nothing and went about business as usual, some small X% of the population would die, hospitals might be forced to do bed rationing for a while (leading to more deaths), but the vast majority of citizens would get better in a few weeks due to their natural immune systems. 20-30 years in the future you wouldn't be able to tell it ever happened.
The threat to society as it relates to the pandemic is all due to red vs. blue political in-fighting over how much responsibility and power the government should have for protecting its citizens. That plus the added threat of economic turmoil due to commercially onerous government mandates/policies/efforts to reduce X% (lockdowns, capacity mandates, rent moratoriums, etc.).
I just find it interesting that society is tearing itself apart over a problem that essentially solves itself over time regardless of our actions, meanwhile society is not tearing itself apart over a problem that does not solve itself over time (climate change) and where doing nothing will eventually have consequences of apocalyptic proportions.
Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dissolve the constitution and call for a new constitutional convention?
Maybe. Maybe . Or maybe that triggers the civil war. Look, it's possible. It could even be what we need. But for it to work, we'd need wisdom and honest compromise, not sound-bite driven trench-warfare politics. Under current conditions, I see a low probability that it would work.
Or perhaps mandatory civil service?
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/31/us-democracy-mandatory-...
Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
What are the measures by which the US is doing better than continental Europe? What are some things the NYT was publishing but stopped publishing when they didn't fit the defeatist storyline? I don't doubt that partisan propaganda spread as news is among the chief reasons the US is at war with itself right now, but you lose me when you pick the NYT as the chief culprit.
Overall, the US seems to be doing about as well as continental Europe in ways that actually matter, like deaths. What the NYT did was cherry-picking figures - for example, for a while last winter they kept comparing Spanish cases to Florida cases to downplay the Spanish wave as less bad, even though the trajectory of the Spanish outbreak was much scarier, and then suddenly forgot about that comparison when Spain pass…
US compared to EU countries in CIVID deaths per capita [1].
[1] http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/?chart=countri...
Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model
#49Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model
#50Well, we're at a point where foreign attacks on our elections are a partisan issue, the response to a pandemic which has killed some 770k citizens is a partisan issue, whether or not we can use democratic elections to select our leaders is a partisan issue, to say nothing of catastrophic climate change. But then, for much of the first century of the existence of the US whether or not some humans could own others as s…
The polarization is mostly between those who trust mainstream media and those who don’t. Not sure what can be done with media pushing disinformation for political reasons, any regulation there would risk violating the 1st amendment.
> The polarization is mostly between those who trust mainstream media and those who don’t.
I don't think your statement is complete.
The polarisation is about truth. Is science true? Is what $Politician says true? Is $NewsReport true?
A common standard for honesty, education -- and maybe even decency -- seems to have disappeared.
The only real brake on some people's behaviour appears to be when they suffer socio-economic consequences. But being part of a large faction is an effective buffer.