Defund the Police meets the crime wave • Hacker News Board

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#191

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:32 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #181

asdff wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oftentimes they are given this military gear for pretty much free. When is the last time you've even seen SWAT deployed that made you think "I wish they didn't deploy SWAT?"

>When is the last time you've even seen SWAT deployed that made you think "I wish they didn't deploy SWAT?" Literally 100% of the times I hear about them using SWAT in the news I think this. If someone is truly valuable they tail them and conduct a fishing stop and arrest them. SWAT is all for show these days.

> If someone is truly valuable they tail them and conduct a fishing stop and arrest them. SWAT is all for show these days.

While I agree that there is a trend in this direction, an import exception where SWAT is used that isn’t just for show (and where a tail + fishing stop as you describe would not work) is high-threat hostage situations, which do occur.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#192

Post by whimsicalism » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:32 PM UTC

mostertoaster wrote: post #179

confidantlake wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If most officers held the brutal ones accountable then there wouldn't be protests.

Yeah I think this is definitely part of the answer. Though I think there is some guilt on the other side when they’ve treated police departments as if they’re all the same. When every use of force against even the most vile of criminals, in legitimate life or death situations, is somehow proof of their racist tendencies if the perp was a PoC.

> every use of force against even the most vile of criminals, in legitimate life or death situations, is somehow proof of their racist tendencies if the perp was a PoC.

Example?

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#193

Post by monocasa » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:32 PM UTC

mostertoaster wrote: post #166

uoaei wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If cops aren't willing to do their jobs, and instead let their feelings get in the way, they are negligent in their service and incompetent... to say the least. It is not the jobs of people being policed to watch their own tone so they avoid offending cops. It is the job of cops to serve and protect , full stop. It is well-known that police departments align closely with the cultural segments that (among other things…

Are you saying cops don’t serve and protect? Do you know any who rushed into active mass shooting scenes, which is clearly a dangerous place to be? If you did, then you might think differently. Have cops used undue force? Yes. Are there some that are on a power trip and need to be fired? Yes. That doesn’t change what the police officers I know are like, nor the risks they are taking with every patrol. I think the mai…

Police have fought for and received the legal right to not serve and protect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

Nor are they required to rush into an active shooter situation any more than any other citizen

https://abcnews.go.com/US/cop-fired-parkland-shooting-job-ba...

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#194

Post by cmh89 » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:33 PM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #121

tshaddox wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand some criticisms of the slogan, but why are you criticizing the slogan in this case when the police were literally not defunded?

Not op. When the call for reform is "defund" and that seems like the wrong thing to do, then people don't support sensible reform. One would imagine that many if not most police officers support some kinds of sensible reform but probably hesitate to support "defunding" their wages and have their and their colleagues jobs cut, which is what "defund" really sounds like. It's a total us and them mentality which is not t…

>One would imagine that many if not most police officers support some kinds of sensible reform but probably hesitate to support "defunding" their wages and have their and their colleagues jobs cut, which is what "defund" really sounds like.

I'd argue that the reason that folks rallied 'defund' is that police aren't willing to accept reasonable reform and they have enough power to keep it from happening.

Reform isn't realistic in a system that required the group being reformed to consent to the type of reform.

I'm personally a fan of 'reallocate' police funds.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#195

Post by whimsicalism » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:33 PM UTC

spfzero wrote: post #182

monkeybutton wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If police actually held their peers accountable, people wouldn't be rioting and this downward spiral would stop.

It doesn't seem like rioters wait patiently to see if someone will be held accountable, before rioting.

Really? it seems like many of the protests occur directly after major acquittals of police?

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#196

Post by tshaddox » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:33 PM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #187

tshaddox wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that it doesn’t make sense to say “you called for defunding the police, we didn’t defund the police, things got worse, therefore your slogan is bad.”

Because no meaningful reform happened and whatever did happen doesn't, at face value, appear to be positive?

I would want to evaluate the merits of a particular slogan by means other than whether the intended reform happened. It’s easy to say “no thanks” to reform regardless of how good of a slogan it is.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#197

Post by confidantlake » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:33 PM UTC

Trias11 wrote: post #43

To solve violent crime we just need to give citizens ability to protect themselves. Try to rob me or hurt my family - be carried away in a body bag. Yet that goes against some politicians narrative.

Which is why America is the safest country in the world.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#198

Post by whimsicalism » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:34 PM UTC

vondur wrote: post #83

scrollbar wrote: post #18

I read most of the article, in which the author implies that defunding the police increases crime, and blames the people in charge of Oakland with this crime. Yet I recalled hearing that police budgets in Oakland were steady to up this year, despite the protests. A quick search seems to confirm this: https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-didnt-cut-any-money-from-t... >Despite claims to the contrary, the Oakland City Coun…

The main item in certain states is not prosecuting crime. We recently had a smash and grab robbery that made news here in SoCal. The suspects were quickly apprehended, but it turns out they were released on bail almost immediately afterwards. Due to the non-prosecution of criminal acts, these people will probably never do any jail time. People are definitely cognizant of this at this point, and it's eroding peoples t…

Seems reasonable to have bail for a smash-and-grab rather than jail. I'd vote against someone proposing otherwise, as do most people I know, so I'm guessing this is just a reflection of the general democratic will of the citizenry here.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#199

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:34 PM UTC

mint2 wrote: post #189

mostertoaster wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying cops don’t serve and protect? Do you know any who rushed into active mass shooting scenes, which is clearly a dangerous place to be? If you did, then you might think differently. Have cops used undue force? Yes. Are there some that are on a power trip and need to be fired? Yes. That doesn’t change what the police officers I know are like, nor the risks they are taking with every patrol. I think the mai…

Look at the LA times report on the the Torrence police department. A substantial number of officers were texting klan like message and bragging about racially profiling and lying about it. Note the articles refer back to earlier texting scandals in places like SF where recently cops were caught on camera just sitting around watching people rob a dispensary. It’s obvious some cops do not serve and protect, and there a…

> It’s obvious some cops do not serve and protect

All cops “serve and protect”.

The problem with isn’t that those verbs don’t apply, it is the objects of the verbs. Who do they serve and what do they protect.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#200

Post by starik36 » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:34 PM UTC

keewee7 wrote: post #145

Many comments here are pointing out that police haven't been defunded yet. But just threatening to defund a service will lower the quality of that service. The "Defund the police" movement has completely dominated the Internet and mainstream media so it wouldn't surprise me if many cops are moving to smaller towns or changing fields.

Exactly right. If someone tells me that I'll be getting paid less next year (even if it's not going to happen), I will literally do the bare minimum not to get fired.