New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#71

Post by Angostura » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

LanceH wrote: post #20

beardyw wrote: post #9

I fully support this, but sadly there will be kids to whom possession and the smoking of cigarettes will be even more a sign of the utmost coolness. And, as I understand it there will be a time when a 35 year old can buy cigarettes but a 34 year old can't. That's going to be interesting.

I can't support any legislation that so blatantly discriminates against a whole class of people. People should be treated equally in the eyes of the law.

It's certainly unfair that the older generation end up with worse health because they aren't protected by this law, it's true.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#72

Post by sleepysysadmin » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #14

bovermyer wrote: post #4

I like this. It's certainly more possible in New Zealand than in a corporate-owned country like the USA.

I will have you know our corporate overlords own a good chunk of New Zealand also and any resistance is futile! But what's up with Jacinda? Is she afraid of Maori adults, why not just ban tobacco entirely?

>But what's up with Jacinda? Is she afraid of Maori adults, why not just ban tobacco entirely?

Kind of side line question. Jacinda got a huge result in the election. Their majority and nearly majority popular vote effectively authorizes them do whatever they please.

So why not go all the way on all their efforts?

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#73

Post by Wowfunhappy » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

bigyikes wrote: post #26

The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer? If it’s “for their own good”, what makes the government the best entity to decide what’s good for one’s self? I hope lives are saved, but dang, it just hurts me a little bit to see personal liberty curbed. There’s no way this will result in an…

Well, I'd be okay with people smoking cigarettes if non-smokers literally never had to breathe in their second-hand smoke. So, if someone without any children lived in a single-family home (as opposed to an apartment building or complex) and never left for long enough to need a smoke break while out in public—I'd say sure, go ahead and smoke, that's none of my business.

How many people does that describe? How many people can truly predict they will never want kids? How many people never need to go out during the day, now and forever in the future?

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#74

Post by foxrider » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

swlp21 wrote: post #17

The price increases (10% per year since 2011) have created a market for stolen and counterfeit cigarettes already. Creating a slow-roll prohibition will not stop people wanting to smoke tobacco products - in fact, previous evidence (e.g. alcohol and cannabis as things most people know about) shows that people are motivated to partake by the very idea of it being illicit. The product of US prohibition was the creation…

While both alcohol and weed can give you altered reality experience, tobacco can not. Tobacco smokers are a major annoyance and a nuisance to the public, on top of killing themselves slowly, so if the tobacco cigarrets would've been strictly illegal and you coldn't smoke in public I can't imagine people willing to organize into small secret clubs to smoke a few cigs a day in a place you have to go to.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#75

Post by gadflyinyoureye » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #36

gadflyinyoureye wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s the problem with tobacco. It becomes a public expense when the community has to pay the health bill. The same arguments that people who refuse COVID vaccines should be cut off from the community (jobs, commerce, etc) applies to tobacco. Tobacco costs lives and can inflict damage on those not personally using.

>The same arguments that people who refuse COVID vaccines should be cut off from the community (jobs, commerce, etc) applies to tobacco. When was the last time an ER or ICU was closed to new patients because of lung cancer? The problem with COVID denialism isn't that they impose the usual sort of healthcare costs but that they produce correlated emergencies which strain the hospital beyond its usual operating capacit…

Once the ERs slow down can people who didn’t get the shot have jobs or leave their homes? Many on the Left say no.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#76

Post by benmmurphy » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

wepple wrote: post #46

bigyikes wrote: post #26

The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer? If it’s “for their own good”, what makes the government the best entity to decide what’s good for one’s self? I hope lives are saved, but dang, it just hurts me a little bit to see personal liberty curbed. There’s no way this will result in an…

One consideration here that many folks (US in particular) may not consider is that smokers put a very substantial burden on the NZ healthcare system which is taxpayer funded. Of course, there are plenty of counter examples to this such as obesity (NZ is #2 in obesity only to US at #1) where the costs don’t result in any substantial regulation or prohibition. Alcohol is a ginormous topic too, NZ has an extremely unhea…

I remember looking at the figures ages ago for a different country and if you netted everything out smoking saved the government money.

For example here is something from the UK from the IEA:

https://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2017/08/smoking-and-dri...

    The Smoking and the Public Purse report argues that the government spends £3.6bn treating smoking-related diseases on the NHS and up to £1bn collecting cigarette butts and extinguishing smoking-related house fires.

    The government saves £9.8bn annually in pension, healthcare and other benefit payments due to premature mortality, the IEA said.

    Meanwhile, the government brings in £9.5bn a year in duty paid on tobacco, the IEA said. Suggesting this means smoking produces a net saving to public finances of £14.7bn a year, at current rates of consumption.

I think people just assume automatically smokers are a drain on the healthcare system but I wouldn't assume this without having a deep look at the figures.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#77

Post by dgfitz » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #45

LanceH wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't support any legislation that so blatantly discriminates against a whole class of people. People should be treated equally in the eyes of the law.

A drug preference ins't a "class of people". It's just a preference (or an addiction).

How many upper-middle class people do you know who smoke cigarettes?

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#78

Post by chrischattin » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

snarf21 wrote: post #37

swlp21 wrote: post #17

The price increases (10% per year since 2011) have created a market for stolen and counterfeit cigarettes already. Creating a slow-roll prohibition will not stop people wanting to smoke tobacco products - in fact, previous evidence (e.g. alcohol and cannabis as things most people know about) shows that people are motivated to partake by the very idea of it being illicit. The product of US prohibition was the creation…

Good points. Like you said, kids drink underage and kids smoke underage. People buy heroin, etc. even though it is illegal. We'd be better off making these things legal for those 18+, tax them and use that to fund addiction recovery (we already have addicts but no one is paying for recovery).

The Portuguese model has been wildly successful.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#79

Post by vertis » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

bigyikes wrote: post #26

The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer? If it’s “for their own good”, what makes the government the best entity to decide what’s good for one’s self? I hope lives are saved, but dang, it just hurts me a little bit to see personal liberty curbed. There’s no way this will result in an…

Those freedoms impact on others. It's well known that passive smoking is a major problem[1].

If they want to smoke away from everyone else (and that means everyone), fine. If they want to hang out in a group of consensual smokers, then fine. But they don't, they sit around in bars and blow smoke in your face or smoke walking down a street so that you either have to pass them or walk through the smoke.

This is leaving alone the impacts on the environment every time one of them flicks a cigarette into a drain, and impacts on healthcare and taxation every time I have to pay for their healthcare (universal healthcare).

To be clear, I'm pro universal healthcare.

Australia and New Zealand have done a superb job of reducing the amount of tobacco smoke. The difference between going to a bar/cafe in Australia and one in Croatia/Serbia is substantial (not singling them out, I've just visited).

I don't know whether this plan will work, and I understand the concerns around personal freedom, I'm just not sure whether protecting the 'rights of smokers' is the right hill to die on.

[1]: https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/seco...

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#80

Post by em-bee » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

bigyikes wrote: post #26

The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer? If it’s “for their own good”, what makes the government the best entity to decide what’s good for one’s self? I hope lives are saved, but dang, it just hurts me a little bit to see personal liberty curbed. There’s no way this will result in an…

because they are not only putting themselves at risk but they affect everyone around them.