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Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

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Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#71

Post by bellyfullofbac »

nordicengineer wrote: post #57
defaultname wrote: post #30

Often in situations like this -- where everything seems to be wrong with everyone else -- I remember that old Dysfunction Inc. post that had a tagline something along the lines of "The consistent feature of all of your dysfunctional relationships is you". It's a nod to the fact that often we need to stop and self-reflect instead of constantly enumerating the failures of everyone else. I have limited insight into who…

Thanks! FWIW it's not a knee-jerk reaction post, though choice of words can always be better, especially for someone who doesn't have English as their native language. I'm not irritated. I'm more lost for words. And I honestly wanted to ask others what's their experience. In 2021. In Scandinavia or worldwide. In a so-called "hot market". Post Corona etc. My examples come from tenS of interviews, maybe even hundreds.…

I have the same thought as grandparent commenter, and your last paragraph isn't making my perception any better.

IMO, go to a career coach, or psychiatrist, and get a neutral perspective of whether they see you as having a difficult personality. I've read that most people decide on hiring on the idea of whether they'd want to have a beer with that person. Yeah it's not fair, but well, they're paying for those beers (being metaphoric here), and how badly do you need one?

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#72

Post by tempodox »

plutonorm wrote: post #34
dusted wrote: post #2

I think I've read a few posts on this type on HN, and it seems to me like they are similar in a few ways, there might not be anything wrong with that, but I am still somewhat inclined to believe these things are why the job hunt is not going well for them. Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that? I'll challenge the notion and call it "An inability to find meaning in the available work." Feeling…

He sounds like a person high in creativity trying to get along with standard developers who, by and large, are not creative people. Creativity is a one of the big 5 character traits and pretty immutable. If you are highly creative you #need# new experiences, it's not just a preference, it's necessary for your psychological well being. Moving into and working with companies dominated by non creative types, who prefer…

I don't get why your comment has been downvoted without an explanation. From my (admittedly ignorant) point of view it seems like a fair perspective.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#73

Post by Nextgrid »

nordicengineer wrote: post #20
Nextgrid wrote: post #11

> What do you mean why should we X? Because that's what everyone does, because otherwise our employers will not find it cool here and leave, etc Welcome to modern startups where the goal is to build an engineering playground and not to solve a business problem. > Hire for boring maintenance From a candidate's perspective, being stuck with a boring stack makes them less employable in the long run unless every company…

> being stuck with a boring stack makes them less employable in the long run > "boring" people typically cost more This is where I know I have a big ask to think outside of the box, but companies don't need to pay extra and that boring environments shouldn't reflect negatively on employees. Employers can pay the same salary and say 1 day a week, 2 days a week, you can do whatever, you still get paid. And you can get…

> boring environments shouldn't reflect negatively on employees

It's not that they reflect negatively, it's that in a world of hype, not having hype technologies on your resume puts you at a disadvantage for future opportunities as you just won't have the skills they are looking for, which means the company needs to offer a higher salary to compensate for that downside.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#74

Post by nordicengineer »

the__prestige wrote: post #24
nordicengineer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you'll understand I'm not arguing against you. I can totally understand the adversity, and by all means people can easily use it as a bias, but it merely gauges how good at "if X then Y" one is, which in turn reflects on how clear the job at hand should be. It's not about being smart/er than others, it should be just one datapoint in a sea of tens of datapoints in the search for "a good fit". And all you're lo…

You used the IQ test as an example of how your needs are fairly basic. Is it possible that your needs are not basic, and you may in fact expect high standards of your employer?

I mentioned the IQ test because those employers couldn't stop talking about fitting in. Without tests, fitting in = we like you, we like you not, where WE can be very different today than tomorrow. Applying for the same position after knowing that the hiring manager was replaced is not unheard of.

I definitely do NOT want tests of ANY kind to be the norm, but if I'm forced to find a "fit", then I try to take myself out of the picture and balance the team instead. I respectfully reject the idea that this is similar to "measuring skulls" (a comment in the thread).

Thanks for pointing that out. Hopefully I made myself clearer now.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#75

Post by giantg2 »

tomfanning wrote: post #33
giantg2 wrote: post #18

"I'm at a stage where I wonder if it's raining only on me." This describes me exactly. I'm basically a cartoon character with a rain cloud following me. I'm in the US, 10 years experience, a Masters degree, and I don't even make $100k. I've spent years working with obscure tech on the initial promise that the company doesn't outsource or lay off. Now the company is doing both and I basically have to start over. The c…

For every engineer on six figures there will be many many of them on five figures. We read about six-figure engineer salaries because people write about them. $100k is well above the US median. I don't think there should be an absolute expectation that every engineer position earns $100k even at 10 years experience. Some will, but many won't.

Actually, BLS says about $110k is the US median dev salary.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#76

Post by gerbilly »

I'm not going to tell you to 'learn your place' like other commenters, or even suggest you change your attitude.

Employment implies a power gradient between you and the employer.

The thing that sucks is that income is tied to employment for most of us, and it's OK to express the fact that this sucks.

How do we go beyond this? This is a problem I've found difficult to resolve myself.

For people who are creative, and good at what they do (as you seem to be) it's always going to be a struggle to fit into a structure like that.

Because I am a freelancer, I've worked at a lot of different companies.¹

What I've noticed is that sometimes they love you and praise you, and other times the hate you and blame you. In one situation you are a hero, in another a pain in the ass. Sometimes both even happened in the same company/team.

All the time I'm the exact same person. We all have a mix of personality traits that we bring to our work. Some traits the employer will like, some they won't. But what I've learned is that they all come together. They are a package deal.

So despite the posts below that encourage you to change who you are, I am suggesting you should just be more conscious of the interplay between the qualities you have in your 'bundle' and how to best deploy them in each situation.

I've also learned to take blame and even praise from employers with a grain of salt.² They are just trying to shape your behaviour, and will probably change their opinion of you next month.

So in the end it's a relationship. In some cultures they don't look for soulmates, they just marry a decent person and move on, saying to themselves, most [husbands|wives] are pretty much the same.

I think they are onto something. Find a 'good enough' employer, and stop looking for your 'soulmate job.' Do decent work, then go home. And find some hobbies!

1: Lots of short contracts, by mutual agreement. Also a handful of full time jobs.

2: A quote from the Buddha on this:

    Just as solid rock is not shaken by the wind,

    Even so the Wise are unmoved by blame or by praise.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#77

Post by samhw »

sascha_sl wrote: post #7
dusted wrote: post #2

I think I've read a few posts on this type on HN, and it seems to me like they are similar in a few ways, there might not be anything wrong with that, but I am still somewhat inclined to believe these things are why the job hunt is not going well for them. Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that? I'll challenge the notion and call it "An inability to find meaning in the available work." Feeling…

> Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that? I'll challenge the notion and call it "An inability to find meaning in the available work." Having an impact. Right now, I'm stuck in a glue code + terraform + maintaining third party code job. 2 years ago I did platform engineering with high impact features for ~100 people across ~20 teams. > Sense of entitlement, _YOU_ liking the hiring manager? It's…

> Remember, if you call something crap, you're probably doing it close to the person who is responsible for it being crap.

I got bitten by this once. It turns out there's a variable φ(crap) representing the amount of time you have to work at a company before – what I thought were – self-deprecating comments, about the app being a piece of shit, are regarded as self-deprecating, rather than an outsider trashing their work.

> if you forego extreme salaries

Just FWIW, to forego is to go before, whereas to forgo is to go without.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#78

Post by plutonorm »

tempodox wrote: post #72
plutonorm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He sounds like a person high in creativity trying to get along with standard developers who, by and large, are not creative people. Creativity is a one of the big 5 character traits and pretty immutable. If you are highly creative you #need# new experiences, it's not just a preference, it's necessary for your psychological well being. Moving into and working with companies dominated by non creative types, who prefer…

I don't get why your comment has been downvoted without an explanation. From my (admittedly ignorant) point of view it seems like a fair perspective.

The other guy probably took it as an insult that I was saying he wasn't creative. Being 'creative' is seen as 'good' when in fact it's often a huge pita.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#79

Post by nordicengineer »

dusted wrote: post #56
dangerface wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that? There are lots of companies that are always "looking to higher" but they aren't actively highering, bullshit "job opportunities" are everywhere. > Feeling attacked about their profile, but not changing them to accommodate. Their profile should be an honest description of their abilities. Suggesting they change to "accommodate" sounds like you are sugges…

> There are lots of companies.. You can find meaning in anything if you look at it the right way, even if you're writing soulless fintech code to steal from the poor, there are probably interesting challenges in there.. How facebook manages to infer so much about their users based on the data they're stealing? Interesting problems even if they're distasteful. > Their profile should be an honest description ... They m…

> Usually you can get a job by asking a friend to put in a word for you at their place, or just letting them know you're looking.

tl;dr

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#80

Post by nordicengineer »

gerbilly wrote: post #76

I'm not going to tell you to 'learn your place' like other commenters, or even suggest you change your attitude. Employment implies a power gradient between you and the employer. The thing that sucks is that income is tied to employment for most of us, and it's OK to express the fact that this sucks. How do we go beyond this? This is a problem I've found difficult to resolve myself. For people who are creative, and g…

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