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Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

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Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#21
post #2

I think I've read a few posts on this type on HN, and it seems to me like they are similar in a few ways, there might not be anything wrong with that, but I am still somewhat inclined to believe these things are why the job hunt is not going well for them. Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that? I'll challenge the notion and call it "An inability to find meaning in the available work." Feeling…

Not OP but there's one point of yours I take issue with:

> Supposedly seniors relying on recruiters and job offers instead of using their network, if they've worked with people in the past, and can't draw on that, I wonder how that is, is it that everybody they worked with are not nice people and don't like them ?

I'm good at my job, senior and even led teams (tech lead) a couple of times at large public companies by now and when changing jobs I couldn't use my network. I don't live in a tech hub (also sounds like OP's situation) and most of my former coworkers/managers lack ambition/drive to get to companies/teams I aim to get hired at. The reason being that most of the companies I worked for were not tech and this is a severe handicap - to put it in perspective I make almost twice what my manager made 5 years ago

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#22
Because hiring is a selling and hazing process, not a technical one. Get used to handling BS deftly or get used to under/unemployment.

What exactly would an IQ or personality test accomplish?

> Everyone wants to be different, by doing the exact same thing as everyone else

They're called "hipsters."

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#23
post #4

I can't comment on the rest of the post but this bit stood out to me: > Sometimes they talk so much about fit fit fit, but they don't even bother with a personality or IQ test (which as a former hiring manager, I find very valuable because it allows you to balance the team, not because you see how high/low people score). Just for reference, if an employer ever asks me to perform an IQ test I'm definitely walking away…

They’re the norm in Scandinavia, unfortunately.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#24
post #4

I can't comment on the rest of the post but this bit stood out to me: > Sometimes they talk so much about fit fit fit, but they don't even bother with a personality or IQ test (which as a former hiring manager, I find very valuable because it allows you to balance the team, not because you see how high/low people score). Just for reference, if an employer ever asks me to perform an IQ test I'm definitely walking away…

I hope you'll understand I'm not arguing against you. I can totally understand the adversity, and by all means people can easily use it as a bias, but it merely gauges how good at "if X then Y" one is, which in turn reflects on how clear the job at hand should be. It's not about being smart/er than others, it should be just one datapoint in a sea of tens of datapoints in the search for "a good fit". And all you're lo…

You used the IQ test as an example of how your needs are fairly basic. Is it possible that your needs are not basic, and you may in fact expect high standards of your employer?

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#25
post #4

I can't comment on the rest of the post but this bit stood out to me: > Sometimes they talk so much about fit fit fit, but they don't even bother with a personality or IQ test (which as a former hiring manager, I find very valuable because it allows you to balance the team, not because you see how high/low people score). Just for reference, if an employer ever asks me to perform an IQ test I'm definitely walking away…

They’re the norm in Scandinavia, unfortunately.

This is one of the ickiest things I've ever read about Scandinavia

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#26
post #18

"I'm at a stage where I wonder if it's raining only on me." This describes me exactly. I'm basically a cartoon character with a rain cloud following me. I'm in the US, 10 years experience, a Masters degree, and I don't even make $100k. I've spent years working with obscure tech on the initial promise that the company doesn't outsource or lay off. Now the company is doing both and I basically have to start over. The c…

you always work for yourself first. if the job doesn't develop actually useful skills that can be taken elsewhere then you're pigeonholing yourself, as youre now seeing.

Lesson learned

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#27
As a hiring manager, the common theme I see in your post is a condescension toward everyone you interview with. You project an unwavering belief that you know how to run other people’s companies and hiring processes better than they do. If this is projected at all during your interview, the companies aren’t going to be eager to hire you. (And to be honest, they’d be right)

For example:

> Sometimes you get the job and when you start rolling questions and ideas, you get a "talk to the hand" followed by "that's now what you're here for". Why hire a senior person as a poster, if you're not willing to be challenged and listen to different ideas? Nobody is asking you to agree, just play ball with convincing arguments. Too much of an ask, I guess.

There’s nothing wrong with asking for clarification about reasoning, but when someone is constantly challenging every decision made by management then it becomes an impediment to getting things done. If you want to be the person calling the shots, you should probably be applying for management positions. If you want to take an IC engineer position but constantly argue with the work, the company will eventually need to isolate you with a patient manager or remove you from the team in order to keep everyone aligned.

> Sometimes they talk so much about fit fit fit, but they don't even bother with a personality or IQ test (which as a former hiring manager, I find very valuable because it allows you to balance the team, not because you see how high/low people score)

I’m kind of stunned that you think coding challenges and tech interviews are useless, but you insist that companies use IQ and personality tests to hire coders.

Personality and IQ tests have been widely panned by the tech industry because they have very little signal but very high noise. If you expect companies to give you IQ and personality tests, you’re going to be disappointed. More broadly: If you expect every manager to reflect exactly how you would choose to run things, you may be trying to act as a “backseat driver” manager without taking the responsibility of actual being a manager.

> It's just maniac managers creating work for them to manage with tech they don't understand.

It’s clear you have a strong lack of respect for everyone you’ve interviewed with, from your description of “shitty challenges” to “maniac managers” being disappointed that they aren’t giving you IQ tests. It may not be obvious, but this level of anger tends to show through during interviews even if you try to hide it. Experienced hiring managers are going to pick up on it and flag you as a likely difficult employee to manage.

To be blunt: If you find yourself interviewing at and working for a significant number of companies and finding intractable problems with all of them, it’s time to consider that maybe your own perspectives are the common denominator problem. Part of working a job is accepting that other people are making decisions and setting the direction. Providing constructive input and feedback is good, but you need to also have a good attitude about disagreeing and committing to go in the same direction as the team.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#28
post #2

I think I've read a few posts on this type on HN, and it seems to me like they are similar in a few ways, there might not be anything wrong with that, but I am still somewhat inclined to believe these things are why the job hunt is not going well for them. Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that? I'll challenge the notion and call it "An inability to find meaning in the available work." Feeling…

I disagree with this. You sound like a manager I'd never want to work for because you seem to believe this relationship is all about you and I'm some kind of servant.

> Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that?

A lot of people like to feel like they're contributing positively to the world. If you can't explain how their job does that then maybe your company isn't a positive in the world.

> Sense of entitlement, _YOU_ liking the hiring manager? It's your job to get the hiring manager to like you, not the other way around.

It's a two-way street. Why would I want to work for a jackass? That's a recipe for unhappiness. I want a manager I can work with, not one I have to suck it up and work for.

> Not knowing your place: You were supposedly not hired into some leadership position to change the world from day 1, you have opinions, they are based on previous experiences, made elsewhere. Shut up, listen, learn, observe and do your best to do what they ask of you, at least the first half year or more, and then start gently providing input and resistance, show that you can do it their way before trying to get them to do it yours.

Ok, this at least is decent advice even if I don't care for the 'know your place' framing.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#29
post #8
post #4

I can't comment on the rest of the post but this bit stood out to me: > Sometimes they talk so much about fit fit fit, but they don't even bother with a personality or IQ test (which as a former hiring manager, I find very valuable because it allows you to balance the team, not because you see how high/low people score). Just for reference, if an employer ever asks me to perform an IQ test I'm definitely walking away…

Yup. IQ tests, personality tests, psychological profiles, not happening. It's a load of pseudoscientific hogwash which hiring managers use to justify their own biases.

What bias would they have that would be reliably backed up by them?

('Scandanavians are the best employees' perhaps, based on this thread..! But that aside.)

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#30
Often in situations like this -- where everything seems to be wrong with everyone else -- I remember that old Dysfunction Inc. post that had a tagline something along the lines of "The consistent feature of all of your dysfunctional relationships is you". It's a nod to the fact that often we need to stop and self-reflect instead of constantly enumerating the failures of everyone else.

I have limited insight into who you are, which is a post that was likely made in an irritated state and probably is a bit over the top, but various phrases in it are red flags. Having hired and managed for two decades, they sound irritatingly high maintenance.

Questioning why someone uses something is completely valid, for instance, and should never be met with resistance. Questioning in a derogatory or dismissive way (which if you're going to go on about "maniac managers creating work for them to manage with tech they don't understand" seems likely), on the other hand, is going to yield eye rolls and a complete lack of interest in humouring your question. Angling to be "smarter than thou" in a discussion or interview by trying to prove the existing team or group dumb in their choices will never, ever succeed.

We've all been there with the guy who sneeringly questions everything being done. It's incredibly boring.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, and it isn't personal. I'm just going on the limited bit posted.

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