Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant • Hacker News Board

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#601

Post by junon » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

ostenning wrote: post #569

nope96 wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I know people who died from Covid, who'd be alive today if they'd took the vaccine.

But I did take the vaccine, twice. It gives me great anxiety to think about taking it again given what I have gone through. My situation improved significantly but I might not be so lucky next time. I shouldnt have to weigh up potential damage to my heart, versus my right to freedom of movement (im an expat). Personally im holding out for Novavax now.

There have only been a handful of cases of myocarditis or pericarditis in mRNA vaccine recipients, generally young males. A handful. And none of them have died from it.

Remember that VAERS is pretty much the most garbage 'signal' you can possibly get when it comes to side effect reporting as there is pretty much no barrier to entry to get a 'side effect' in there - much less the requirement that you're a medical professional of any sort. It has its uses but saying someone died from the mRNA vaccine because it's in VAERS is like saying someone disappeared because of aliens. In fact, I'm sure you can find something like "turned me into an alien" in VAERS. I'd bet a beer on it.

Please get vaccinated if your doctor approves. Novavax isn't a for-sure deal, as it hasn't been peer reviewed and will be a long time until generally available if found viable.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#602

Post by beerandt » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

peter422 wrote: post #430

beerandt wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an unbelievably poorly designed study, for many reasons. It basically says unvaccinated people who are already or recently sick (with any "covid-like" symptoms) are more likely to go to the hospital once they catch covid (vs vaccinated). (Duh.) Worse, it presumes any of those sick people with respiratory symptoms had natural immunity to covid without any confirmation. So it's not comparing natural immunity to…

Your interpretation of the study is wrong (and probably shows your internal bias in this matter). I’m not suggesting it is a perfect study, but the methodology makes sense. The point is that if somebody gets hospitalized for covid-like sickness, then they’ll be hospitalized (and trackable), and they hope that is a stable cohort. So you start with hospitalized patients with covid-like symptoms, then look among them an…

>Your interpretation of the study is wrong (and probably shows your internal bias in this matter).

They claim to be comparing efficacy of natural immunity to that of vaccination, but they're not. They're not really "measuring" prior natural immunity at all, but just assuming it's there.

How's that misinterpreted?

That's not even close to "not a perfect study".

Yet it's being presented, like here, as evidence against the efficacy of natural immunity, which is something it's not, and as being applicable to the general public, when the sample population is self-selected to be only the sickest of the sick (2 hospital visits in a year).

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#603

Post by landemva » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

peter422 wrote: post #254

listless wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has always been my fear. I'm vaccinated (Moderna) and got COVID in September. I recovered quickly - about 3 days. But I'm worried that my body did not get to have a proper immune response and that as such, I'll have to continue get vaccinated forever whereas if I had just gotten COVID without the vaccine maybe I would be set. But I haven't found _much_ data to back up this concern.

There is little evidence right now that immunity through a natural infection is better than immunity from a vaccine. Given the strains circulating now I don’t think your concern is valid. Vaccines are better and less risky than having your naive immune system deal with covid. Maybe that will change with a future strain (though I’d bet against it), but it isn’t the case now.

What does 'better' mean to you?

I am in relatively lower risk group, and in good health. I got it and recovered on my own. I got blood test and have Dr. letter to prove it.

It appears I now have sterilizing immunity, which is not available with the present vaccines. I suggest sterilizing immunity is better for everyone around me.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#604

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #581

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting infected, using early treatments (even controversial ones) and recovering with a dose of natural immunity is probably better Citation needed, as you appear to be saying that a COVID infection is preferable to a vaccination, and that is an extraordinary claim. Bonus points for using " natural immunity", a loaded term.

There's good evidence that natural infection is more robust than vaccination alone, and that a combination of infection + a booster is best overall: https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...

That may be a silver lining, but the statement was "is COVID infection preferable to a vaccination".

COVID infection, if you're not aware, also can have downsides. This evidence does not make "lets get COVID" a good idea on balance.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#605

Post by packetlost » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

q1w2 wrote: post #571

packetlost wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an immunology expert, but the focus on antibody titers seems to reek of corporate conflict of interest. It's pretty well understood that antibodies will break down and mostly fall to undetectable levels after a few months of an infection (in most cases, and in individuals who actually produce antibodies, not everyone will such as immune-compromised people) , but there's a huge financial incentive for vaccine prod…

Your first sentence is contradicted by the last sentence in your first paragraph (which is correct). B-Cell immunity is much much harder to detect and cannot be done in any test given to the public. It's also difficult to determine from a positive b-cell result whether that person will have a strong or weak immune response - and how soon. I think everyone in the immunology community is aware of the limitations of ant…

The sentences don't really contradict, both can be true (though I will concede the first sentence is not immediately relevant to this particular study). My whole point is that the focus on immunity (vs mild cases) by vaccine manufacturers is potentially misguided and incentivized by selling more boosters.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#606

Post by JasonCannon » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #429

sho_hn wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Fosun Pharma has been licensed by BioNTech to exclusively develop and commercialize COVID-19 vaccines based on its mRNA technology platform in Chinese Mainland, Hong Kong SAR, Macau SAR and Taiwan region." https://investors.biontech.de/news-releases/news-release-det... (2020)

Searching the CDC in Taiwan, I was unable to find any press releases announcing they bought vaccines from Fosun Pharma. Everything I could find said they only received BioNTech vaccines when they were donated . Please correct me if wrong. I assume "Taiwan region" is simply something to satisfy the PRC gov't (CCP) which believes Taiwan is a part of its country and governed by PRC. TW CDC PR: https://www.cdc.gov.tw/En/…

>I assume "Taiwan region" is simply something to satisfy the PRC gov't (CCP) which believes Taiwan is a part of its country and governed by PRC.

To be fair, Taiwan (Officially the Republic of China) also claims that it is a part of China and is in fact the rightful rulers of China. The Kuomintang withdrew to Taiwan after losing control of mainland China to Mao and the Communists. I'm not super up to date on the latest claims between China and Taiwan, but Taiwan has never recognized officially that they do not rightfully control China.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#607

Post by drewcon » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #77

drewcon wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m fascinated by this thinking. Do you really want to roll the dice on an infection and long term consequences including permanent loss of smell (and taste)? If this virus killed exactly no one but it just commonly removed one of your senses…is that not motivation enough to avoid it? Additionally, I just got over a two week adenovirus infection and it absolutely sucked. Not the sickest I’ve been, but the most sympto…

Permanent loss of smell/taste is not a thing, and how would you even demonstrate it? The disease is merely 2 years old, after all. Disinformation like yours doesn't help anybody, and makes discourse about covid more contentious than it otherwise would be.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/up-to-16-million-p...

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#608

Post by ericmay » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

blawson wrote: post #593

ericmay wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> about whether catching something gives you better protection than having a vaccine It's also medically incorrect. When you get a vaccine you are literally getting a live virus injected into you. There's no difference for your immune system. One isn't "fake" and the other "natural". Period. To your point, viruses mutate and so similar to the flu and flu vaccine, if COVID-19 continues to mutate in ways that are diffe…

> When you get a vaccine you are literally getting a live virus injected into you. This is false for the mRNA vaccines according to the CDC: mRNA vaccines do not use the live virus that causes COVID-19 and cannot cause infection with the virus that causes COVID-19 or other viruses. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...

Correct, though the "natural" vs not still applies here. There's no evidence or scientific reason to suggest that catching COVID-19 naturally provides any different immune response than receiving the vaccine for the same strain.

In my previous comment I was unclear about what I was addressing and when, though ultimately the point is that this distinction of contracting a virus "naturally" versus "artificially" is not scientifically based. Applies to COVID-19 mRNA vaccines as well as flu vaccines.

If there's evidence to suggest otherwise though we should get that out there.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#609

Post by edmundsauto » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

potta_coffee wrote: post #524

bink wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how flu shots work. You might have had an immune response that had you feeling down, but flu shots don't give you the flu.

It's semantics whether or not full-blown flu symptoms are "the flu" or not; I get the flu shot, then I get sick.

Except you aren’t going to risk getting very sick (pneumonia) from the vaccinated response. And you aren’t going to give the virus to someone else.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#610

Post by landemva » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 8:03 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #289

freemint wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why people are obsessed with case numbers and not deaths is that case numbers control the case numbers in the insufficiently immunized which predicts death toll 3 weeks ahead of time. Why would you want to control a system with 2-3 weeks of additional lag in your input data when case numbers (a thing that is somewhat easy to measure) correlates so well future deaths? Ideally politician would have some fami…

All of that plus "What kills people from COVID now?" To which the answer is "Lack of access to ICU-capable health facilities." And what causes lack of access? Total number of people hospitalized. And how does that number grow? Exponentially. So every public health department in the world is optimizing for "How do we prevent our limited number of ICU-capable health facilities from being overwhelmed." And that comes do…

' "What kills people from COVID now?" To which the answer is '

Matching with observed reality a better answer may be: 18 months of enhancing the comorbidities of being overweight and in poor physical condition. Sitting on couch while snacking on carbohydrates and fear has been detrimental to many people.