Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant • Hacker News Board

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#581

Post by timr » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #562

swader999 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are in that group (under 65 and no co-morbids) two shots should be fine. Getting infected, using early treatments (even controversial ones) and recovering with a dose of natural immunity is probably better as the SA study from yesterday showed.

> Getting infected, using early treatments (even controversial ones) and recovering with a dose of natural immunity is probably better Citation needed, as you appear to be saying that a COVID infection is preferable to a vaccination, and that is an extraordinary claim. Bonus points for using " natural immunity", a loaded term.

There's good evidence that natural infection is more robust than vaccination alone, and that a combination of infection + a booster is best overall:

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#582

Post by notch656a » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

junon wrote: post #560

swader999 wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't reduce spread in a significant enough amount to make a difference. This seems especially true with Omicron and the spread through vaccinated air travellers. It encourages mutating variants to escape/prevail because it reduces severity so you are more likely to function socially and keep spreading it.

> It doesn't reduce spread in a significant enough amount to make a difference Yes, it does. > This seems especially true with Omicron and the spread through vaccinated air travellers. Nobody knows yet. We don't have enough data. Anyone who says something definitive about Omicron is either basing it off of a small amount of early data, or is lying to you. Things like infection rate, hospitalization and death are all…

>Yes, it does.

>Anyone who says something definitive about Omicron is either basing it off of a small amount of early data, or is lying to you.

So which is it for you? You seem to understand that a small amount of early data isn't enough to gain certainty, and since you say "yes it does" without acknowledging any uncertainty, I'm going to go with you've chose the "lying to you" option.

Edit: Props to the cowardly act that flagged rather than face the hypocrisy.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#583

Post by ulfw » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #384

sho_hn wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also have a licensee (and early R&D investor) in China, Fosun Pharma. I don't know if Fosun is actively manufacturing and distributing, but I think they have the exclusive rights for the Chinese mainland, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Macau.

Doses of BioNTech vaccine distributed by gov'ts in Hongkong and Macao were manufactored by Fosun Pharma. As vaccination rate has dropped dramatically since the initial rush, I don't know if Fosun Pharma is still manufacturing the BioNTech vaccine. Weirdly, I still don't think any foreign made vaccines are approved in mainland China. Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosun_Pharma#COVID-19 I cannot find any reference…

That is not true. All BioNTech doses used in Hong Kong were manufactured by Baxter in Germany for BioNTech and then distributed in HK by Fosun.

Latest: https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/202110/16/P2021101600482...

(they keep falsely claiming Baxter to be a city in Germany. It's a company that manufactures for BioNTech, not a city. https://www.baxter.com/)

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#584

Post by mshron » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

mwint wrote: post #76

mshron wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look all the way over at "Second dose", the age-standardized mortality rate is 1.1 per 100,000 vs 5.4 per 100,000 for the unvaccinated. 5x protection against death.

To put these numbers in perspective, global death rate from car accidents is 18.2/100k/yr. 12.4 in the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...

Yeah, and this is per week data, not per year too. So one year of being unvaccinated is equivalent to 17 years of car crash risk.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#585

Post by ulfw » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

cbhl wrote: post #575

throwaway2037 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Searching the CDC in Taiwan, I was unable to find any press releases announcing they bought vaccines from Fosun Pharma. Everything I could find said they only received BioNTech vaccines when they were donated . Please correct me if wrong. I assume "Taiwan region" is simply something to satisfy the PRC gov't (CCP) which believes Taiwan is a part of its country and governed by PRC. TW CDC PR: https://www.cdc.gov.tw/En/…

My understanding is that folks locally didn't trust the Fosun-made batches, but Taiwan couldn't purchase vaccines from Pfizer due to Fosun holding the distribution rights Hence the donations

There are no Fosun-made batches.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#586

Post by peter422 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #553

peter422 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your interpretation of the study is wrong (and probably shows your internal bias in this matter). I’m not suggesting it is a perfect study, but the methodology makes sense. The point is that if somebody gets hospitalized for covid-like sickness, then they’ll be hospitalized (and trackable), and they hope that is a stable cohort. So you start with hospitalized patients with covid-like symptoms, then look among them an…

You start out by saying their interpretation is wrong, but their interpretation is that it: > presumes any of those sick people with respiratory symptoms had natural immunity to covid without any confirmation. This is an accurate statement to make about the study. Until you can effectively prove somehow this is not the case, it's only you who > shows your internal bias in this matter

No it doesn’t. Read the study. People being hospitalized with covid-like symptoms is the broader population and those with prior confirmed covid infections and those with prior confirmed vaccines within that population are the sample groups where the covid infections rates are compared.

Do you genuinely believe a study with such a massive and obvious methodology problem would get published and cited by the CDC? (and yes I know bad studies do get published from time to time but it isn’t common).

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#587

Post by ohyes » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

Leparamour wrote: post #570

arisAlexis wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why draw a deadly roulette ticket?

Seems like the vaccine is the deadly roulette ticket: risk of fatal bloodclotting every time a new vaccine is administered while ironically being at a higher risk against new, potentially more dangerous, mutations compared to people who recovered from a Covid infection naturally. I guess it comes down how much you trust pharmaceutical companies having the payday of a lifetime and politicians on a power trip.

To be clear, there is no evidence for any of your claims.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#588

Post by hammock » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

pseudalopex wrote: post #496

Auracle wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Fairly) effective at preventing serious disease/hospitalization. It seems to me the original plan on the vaccines was to reduce r0 below 1 in the population as a whole, but when Delta came along we changed the metrics the vaccines were to be judged by.

Over 90% is more than fairly effective. All vaccines are judged by preventing serious disease and death. Not meeting higher hopes doesn't change that.

The justification for a vaccine mandate is based on preventing infection and transmission (aka r0), not just disease or death. That is probably on a lot of people's minds.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#589

Post by biztos » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

CountDrewku wrote: post #547

biztos wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the "honor system" for quarantine. Also the closure of museums (airy, 25% capacity, everyone masked) but not department stores (crowded, many ignoring mask rules). Also the fact that my art-supply store in Berlin had to cordon off the half of its inventory that wasn't on the "essential" list, so some paint yes, some paint no. Also the refusal to confront the anti-vaxxers (police complicity, etc). Also the very p…

Yes an authoritarian police state enforcing quarantine in Germany sounds like a great idea. I'm sure there are historical examples they can follow.

Or, you could be honest with the public and call it voluntary.

In many countries, compulsory quarantine was enforced. In Germany it never was, but they still presented it as compulsory and held out the possibility that it might be enforced.

I don’t wish they had enforced it, I wish they had been honest about the arrangement.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#590

Post by hef19898 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #406

freemint wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why people are obsessed with case numbers and not deaths is that case numbers control the case numbers in the insufficiently immunized which predicts death toll 3 weeks ahead of time. Why would you want to control a system with 2-3 weeks of additional lag in your input data when case numbers (a thing that is somewhat easy to measure) correlates so well future deaths? Ideally politician would have some fami…

> Why would you want to control a system with 2-3 weeks of additional lag in your input data when case numbers (a thing that is somewhat easy to measure) correlates so well future deaths? Because case numbers are actually not easy to measure. I'm basing this of my personal experience working in a German healthcare company, we took up testing during the pandemic; All the tests we do are on unvaccinated people. That's…

Sure, there is selection bias. Given the overall effectivness of vaccines, the number of positive, yet untested, vaccinated people should be rather small. Plus, those vaccinated without symptoms most likely are not the problem as they are not really infectious. Once you develop symptoms you are tested.

On tip of that, a lot of states are now on 2G+, recovered or vaccinated and tested (anti-gen), for things like cinemas (requiring official tests in e.g. Bavaria) or self tests on site (fitness studios for example). Kids are regularly tested in school (my son three times, my daughter twice). Sure, some of those tests, those at fitness studios, are not counted. If those are positive, I think the number of people not getting a proper PCR test is rather small.