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Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

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Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#501

Post by nope96 »

ostenning wrote: post #466
beervirus wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s… fine? I don’t care if I have to get a jab every 6 months. I don’t care if Pfizer and Moderna make a ton of money off this—they deserve it.

No its not fine because not everyone reacts well to these vaccines. I know numerous people, including myself, that have had crippling heart inflammation after their second dose. I can apply for an exemption but ultimately that does little for what rights I am afforded. People are being left behind, and its not okay.

And I know people who died from Covid, who'd be alive today if they'd took the vaccine.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#502

Post by timr »

Taywee wrote: post #468
timr wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Get a booster when you can, it is worth it. If you are under 65 and not immune compromised, there's essentially no evidence for this claim. If you are either of those things, there's some evidence that it takes your risk of severe illness (already low after vaccination), and divides it by another factor of ~20 [0]. That's great, but it's a tiny absolute effect, and we shouldn't over-sell it. If you're under 65, the…

That still doesn't sound like a strong argument against it to me. Getting the booster might help or might not help as much as was said. Not getting it does nothing for or against you. It sounds to me like getting a booster is a safe, reasoned choice that has a good chance at offering additional protection, zero financial cost for almost everybody, and typically very mild side effects. "Don't get it because there's a…

> It sounds to me like getting a booster is a safe...and typically very mild side effects.

Based on what, exactly? Also, you can drive a truck through the gap left by "typically", here. People with two doses of the vaccines will "typically" never become seriously ill.

We don't prescribe (let alone, mandate) medications because "it might help and people are scared". You have to show the benefits exceed the costs for everyone for whom you are making the recommendation. And the "costs" here don't just include things like heart inflammation (which is a real risk amongst young boys, in particular), but also the societal cost of otherwise healthy people being vaccine-sick for 1-3 days post-booster. Why do that, if it isn't going to provide a real benefit?

Also, I don't know if you noticed this in what I wrote, but the WHO is practically begging rich western nations to stop hoarding vaccines for healthy people, so that poor nations can get first doses.

Meanwhile, we have a new variant...plausibly out of a poor, under-vaccinated nation. Just a coincidence, though!

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#503

Post by artificialLimbs »

Retric wrote: post #370
AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is little evidence right now that immunity through a natural infection is better than immunity from a vaccine. This is a very strong claim to make without any evidence or proof. To the contrary, there is strong evidence that natural infection brings considerably better immunity than any vaccination does. [0] Study analyzed: > 2.5 million people in Israel, spanning March 1st 2020 to August 14th 2021. Full stud…

Different is not the same as better. Multiple studies show benefits for each under different conditions such as time since exposure and consistency of protection. The best fit for available evidence seems to be that getting COVID (or at least a positive test result) doesn’t guarantee a robust long term immunity for every individual. But it can result in a better long term immunity for many. This is why it’s recommend…

Safe unless you're vaccine injured and have to go to the kangaroo vaccine court to get denied any (government, not vaccine manufacturer) payout.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#504

Post by TacticalCoder »

toyg wrote: post #342
nahqz wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no way to stop the spread forever. Just suggesting it is crazy. It is an option you have to forget about. Stalling the spread is useless as well - we have already had two major mutations in less than two years.

> There is absolutely no way to stop the spread forever. Well, there is, we just don't want to pay for it: vaccinating poor countries, where effectively the mutations are being created by high infection rates.

I don't understand: every single study out there says that vaccinated people do still catch the virus and can still spread it.

Why would the current crop of vaccines be able to stop the virus, even if applied worldwide, seen that they don't prevent infection?

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#505

Post by ethbr0 »

toyg wrote: post #360
ethbr0 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of that plus "What kills people from COVID now?" To which the answer is "Lack of access to ICU-capable health facilities." And what causes lack of access? Total number of people hospitalized. And how does that number grow? Exponentially. So every public health department in the world is optimizing for "How do we prevent our limited number of ICU-capable health facilities from being overwhelmed." And that comes do…

I agree completely, with the addition that this has been the case pretty much from the start. Evolution of therapies has been minimal, the killer factor has always been the level of pressure on health services - which doesn't just mean ventilators as initially thought, but the entire care process over several days. And this is why vaccines are a game changer: they remove the need for hospitalization.

Also, obligatory: staff. Which is to say the health care system is sized for employing enough highly-trained trauma / ICU staff to support normal operations, with some small (very small) amount of surge capacity. And people under-estimate the specialization & experience required for high-level ICU and respiratory care. You can't just take a floor nurse and transfer them over to do the new work.

And the amount of complex hospitalizations due to COVID can very quickly become a couple orders of magnitude above "normal operations."

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#506

Post by sjg007 »

bavell wrote: post #397
ohyes wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had the vaccine so you recovered quickly, if you didn’t have the vaccine you might not have recovered and needed hospitalization. I mean, the alternative where you don’t get the vaccine includes much higher risk of lung damage, nervous system damage and total organ failure. I think even if there was data to back this up (that somehow vaccine gives less protection than a real infection…), getting a booster every y…

> I don’t think that your model of how vaccines work really makes sense. I believe OP is referencing "Original antigenic sin" [0]. "This leaves the immune system "trapped" by the first response it has made to each antigen, and unable to mount potentially more effective responses during subsequent infections." [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin

Doesn’t make sense. If the infection continues the immune system will generate new antibodies and responses. After all it’s a new thing not seen before.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#507

Post by anoonmoose »

the_doctah wrote: post #485
anoonmoose wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you were not "literally forced". you were given an option. they didn't hold you down. if you want additional protections you should lobby for those, maybe form a union, but don't lie about being forced to do something.

Your comments are incredibly disingenuous and you're the type of person who would be crying fascism under Trump. Having a gun to your head is technically a choice too. This is your argument.

Comparing actual violence to losing your job is far more disingenuous than anything I'm doing. My opinions about vaccinations are the same now as they were before Trump was elected.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#508

Post by disambiguation »

lb0 wrote: post #202
disambiguation wrote: post #73

I have a few relatives in the medical field (all vaxxed and boosted) that have explained the booster shot is just more of the same stuff - they haven't had time to make a new recipe.. so isn't this just the same study all over again? i.e 2 shots had high protection in the beginning and waned over time. Can we expect the same from the booster shot?

Expert on tv explained it just yesterday.. 3 shots is actually what you need for most vaccines and is the common procedure for most if you remember.. 1st shot "warns" your immune system 2nd shot really triggers your immune system (that's also why most people see strongest side effects here) 3rd shot then makes your immune remind, and massively increases B+T lymphocytesmemory memory cells So yeah, you can expect a lot…

I appreciate the concise explanation.

Is there data yet that demonstrates what you describe is indeed the effect? Or have 3rd doses not yet been deployed widely enough and for long enough to know?

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#509

Post by bink »

hcurtiss wrote: post #401
ethbr0 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the usual way it goes, as long as relatively high mortality virus is circulating in most of the world population. Both infection- and vaccination-produced immunity decays over time. So everyone's choice is between keeping up their vaccination, or getting COVID repeatedly. Which boils down to a question of whether you think being vaccinated or getting COVID is less risky. Yes, there's some +/- on the decay rate…

“Relatively high mortality”? Can you think of any virus even close to COVID mortality that we take these kinds of draconian measures to prevent?

I'm sure you know this but there hasn't been a pandemic virus as virulent and deadly as COVID-19 in modern times.

For some perspective, Chicken Pox killed roughly 100 Americans every year and that vaccine was mandated in effectively all schools and universities across the country.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#510

Post by ethbr0 »

hcurtiss wrote: post #401
ethbr0 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the usual way it goes, as long as relatively high mortality virus is circulating in most of the world population. Both infection- and vaccination-produced immunity decays over time. So everyone's choice is between keeping up their vaccination, or getting COVID repeatedly. Which boils down to a question of whether you think being vaccinated or getting COVID is less risky. Yes, there's some +/- on the decay rate…

“Relatively high mortality”? Can you think of any virus even close to COVID mortality that we take these kinds of draconian measures to prevent?

> Can you think of any virus even close to COVID mortality that we take these kinds of draconian measures to prevent?

SARS-CoV-1 (2002), MERS (2012+)

"Of the 7 coronaviruses, the former four can cause common cold symptoms, but SARS-CoV-2, SARS-CoV, and MERS-CoV can lead to severe respiratory syndromes, with about 6.76%, 9.6%, and 35.5% mortality rates, respectively." [0]

We just dodged a bullet because they were regionally-contained and/or had lower transmissibility. But if you were in Asia before and after 2002, you noticed.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7334925/

Edit: And if we want to go to the more-lethal, less-transmissible end of the spectrum (so roughly equivalent in terms of public health risk), the regularly recurring Ebola outbreaks in Africa. Most recently the 2013-2016 campaign.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ebola_outbreaks

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