Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant • Hacker News Board

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#451

Post by graeme » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

hcurtiss wrote: post #395

ohyes wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had the vaccine so you recovered quickly, if you didn’t have the vaccine you might not have recovered and needed hospitalization. I mean, the alternative where you don’t get the vaccine includes much higher risk of lung damage, nervous system damage and total organ failure. I think even if there was data to back this up (that somehow vaccine gives less protection than a real infection…), getting a booster every y…

Except for many cohorts, the overwhelming — near certain — odds are that they’d be fine after contracting COVID.

In which case….why care which order you did things in, by your logic? If the consequences are low the decision is academic.

(I don’t agree: I think there is risk of chronic damage that doesn’t appear as acute symptoms)

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#452

Post by hamburglar1 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

tremon wrote: post #350

marcosdumay wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it only took 2 days to create the vaccine, why do they not have an updated one? There's a deafening silence every time somebody asks this. From what I've been able to see, it's because regulatory bodies won't accept an update vaccine without 8 months of testing, and the manufacturers are doing the testing, but at those delays there isn't really any point. Why regulatory bodies won't accept updated vaccines is th…

The regulator is only tasked with approving the manufacturer's end results, I don't think they audit the production facilities or the design process. If the production process were fully transparent and the manufacturer could prove it didn't change anything except for "this one input tweak here", the approval process could likely be further streamlined -- but I don't think the authority of the regulator stretches tha…

FDA absolutely reviews stated design processes and audits against these. See 21CFR211 - The perspective here is that even if we are actually pretty confident that it is just "one little tweak here", a one-letter change could have wide ranging affects when interacting with the human body.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#453

Post by swader999 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #361

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get a booster when you can, it is worth it. I had mine last week. We don't know if and when there will be an omicron-specific jab, and a mRNA 3rd dose cuts your chances of bad outcome (severe illness, hospitalisation) from omicron or previous variants to a lot lower than 2 doses ever did. https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1458020957457731585 https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1460191035531878405

> Get a booster when you can, it is worth it. If you are under 65 and not immune compromised, there's essentially no evidence for this claim. If you are either of those things, there's some evidence that it takes your risk of severe illness (already low after vaccination), and divides it by another factor of ~20 [0]. That's great, but it's a tiny absolute effect, and we shouldn't over-sell it. If you're under 65, the…

If you are in that group (under 65 and no co-morbids) two shots should be fine. Getting infected, using early treatments (even controversial ones) and recovering with a dose of natural immunity is probably better as the SA study from yesterday showed.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#454

Post by r00fus » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

listless wrote: post #206

nostrebored wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the problem suggested by other research is that when vaccinated people are infected with a functionally different strain they don’t appear to create new antibodies. This is consistent with other research showing that people who are vaccinated then infected are more likely to get reinfected than those who were simply infected and recovered. The alternative outlook here is that vaccinated people are more likely to…

This has always been my fear. I'm vaccinated (Moderna) and got COVID in September. I recovered quickly - about 3 days. But I'm worried that my body did not get to have a proper immune response and that as such, I'll have to continue get vaccinated forever whereas if I had just gotten COVID without the vaccine maybe I would be set. But I haven't found _much_ data to back up this concern.

> whereas if I had just gotten COVID without the vaccine maybe I would be set

You might be "set" with long COVID, sure [1]. It's like wishing to be mugged so you can learn to fight the muggers next time you get mugged instead of practicing mugging defense with say, a martial arts teacher.

The act of being mugged could injure you for life or kill you.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/monumental-acknow...

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#455

Post by globular-toast » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

AccountToUse wrote: post #416

globular-toast wrote: post #394

When I see threads like these with all the buried/flagged comments I get strong "dangerous thinking" vibes. I won't be taking any more of these.

Any more booster shots? Any more vaccines?

Booster shots. Something doesn't smell right. People on all sides are scared and I don't think rational thought is being applied any more.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#456

Post by heimidal » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #409

peter422 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is little evidence right now that immunity through a natural infection is better than immunity from a vaccine. Given the strains circulating now I don’t think your concern is valid. Vaccines are better and less risky than having your naive immune system deal with covid. Maybe that will change with a future strain (though I’d bet against it), but it isn’t the case now.

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on... > The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people wh…

From the same article:

> The researchers also found that people who had SARS-CoV-2 previously and received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine were more highly protected against reinfection than those who once had the virus and were still unvaccinated.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#457

Post by swader999 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

junon wrote: post #420

MadeThisToReply wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts exactly. Why suffer through 1-2 days of sickness every 6 months to protect myself against an illness that I've already had and poses no threat to my demographic anyway? Sounds like the cure is worse than the disease. I smell a rat.

Because it reduces spread and thus reduces the chance of mutations becoming dominant. The vaccine is not only about protecting the individual.

It doesn't reduce spread in a significant enough amount to make a difference. This seems especially true with Omicron and the spread through vaccinated air travellers. It encourages mutating variants to escape/prevail because it reduces severity so you are more likely to function socially and keep spreading it.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#458

Post by timr » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

heimidal wrote: post #456

timr wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on... > The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people wh…

From the same article: > The researchers also found that people who had SARS-CoV-2 previously and received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine were more highly protected against reinfection than those who once had the virus and were still unvaccinated.

Yes, and?

The comment to which I'm responding said there's little evidence that natural immunity is better than vaccines. That's just not true. There's pretty strong evidence, actually.

That natural immunity plus a booster is better than either is interesting, but not responsive to the question.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#459

Post by biztos » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #224

detaro wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all remain obsessed with case numbers and not actual hospitalizations and death It's a balance. E.g. Germanys current trouble is a direct consequence of official policy that had a core of "we only care about hospitalizations now", but ignored "... and based on case numbers and other statistics, what will future hospitalizations look like if we don't change anything about our approach" - not helped by election campa…

As someone who has quite some experience in running operations based on data, numbers and metrics the German approach to COVID on that front alone really puzzled me from the beginning. First the incidence of 50 that they pulled out of their ass for contact tracing, which was ignored basically the next day. Then the fact that resources weren't really increased to improve contract traceability. Then the decision to use…

Also the "honor system" for quarantine. Also the closure of museums (airy, 25% capacity, everyone masked) but not department stores (crowded, many ignoring mask rules). Also the fact that my art-supply store in Berlin had to cordon off the half of its inventory that wasn't on the "essential" list, so some paint yes, some paint no. Also the refusal to confront the anti-vaxxers (police complicity, etc). Also the very public promises they knew they probably couldn't keep (Christmas is big in Germany).

I had a pretty high opinion of German government competence, Berlin-specific dramas notwithstanding, before the pandemic. I now have a very, very low one.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#460

Post by peteradio » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #403

dolni wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, "we" don't all get the flu vaccine every year. Those of us who are healthy can elect not to get it and be just fine. Secondly, the flu vaccine isn't the same vaccine every year. It is reformulated to target the flu strains that are predicted to be dominant that season. Thirdly, the flu vaccines effectiveness varies wildly from pretty darn good to almost worthless. Usually depending on how accurately flu…

You cannot "elect" to not get a vaccine and be just fine. You're just relying on your luck after electing not to reduce the risks. The risks vary with different diseases, and in different people, and in different demographic environments. But with covid, it's quite clear that for all adults, the risk reduction by vaccine far outweighs the risks of vaccine complications.

Risks of vaccine complications are not the only risks to weigh against getting a vaccine.

Now that these are being mandated it also becomes a risk of validating medical tyranny as an authoritarian methodology.