Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs • Hacker News Board

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#61

Post by monktastic1 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 5:13 AM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #53

monktastic1 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument breaks down for me here: > because the experience of wet is wholly subjective. I can't distinguish this from "wetness is a quale." In which case the analogy water : wetness :: brain : qualia reduces to water : qualia :: brain : qualia. Also: > the experience of having experiences The fact that we sometimes slip up and use recursive language like this is a suggestive sign to me. We intuit that experience…

> the experience of having experiences this is not recursive, really. It is not written to imply that experience is universal, in fact quite the opposite. Most of us generally posit that rocks do not have experiences. Most of us posit that humans do, and likewise (famously) so do bats. But what the experiences that a bat has? It's not unreasonable to assume that they are quite different from the ones a human has. Erg…

Sorry, didn't realize it's not standard notation. In English:

"Water is to wetness as brains are to qualia" reduces to "water is to qualia as brains are to qualia."

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#62

Post by klodolph » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 5:13 AM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #56

klodolph wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is included in the discussion? Is there anyone we can agree has subjective experiences which are not phenomenological?

We can agree that anyone who reports having no subjective experience is not a part of the discussion, i think.

That’s a profoundly unsatisfying answer. I really am interested in who you consider to be a part of the discussion. If qualia are not phenomena, how can we talk about them besides in the hypothetical, since conversations are phenomena? If someone claims to not experience qualia, why would you take that claim any more or less seriously than the claim that someone does experience qualia, or the claim that qualia exist at all?

…or is it possible that qualia are phenomenological?

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#63

Post by tayo42 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 5:14 AM UTC

inter_netuser wrote: post #33

tayo42 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think panpsychism just needs to be explained well and probably most people would be onboard with the idea or at least comfortable accepting it. I thought it was a little wild at first but after reading "Galileo's Error" by Phillip Goff it seems ok. Panspychism it self covers so many theories too. In my personal experience psychedelic use seemed to almost solidify materialism for me. The idea that reality, your self…

how does it reinforce/solidity materialism for you?

During my first lsd trip, I was sitting on a rock in the park, and I'm not sure what happened or why, but suddenly my entire reality fell apart, disintegrated into a bright light and small pieces, and I became intensely aware of how we are seemingly are just built up from particles that came together. I think those pieces were the atoms and molecules that came together to create my experience of the world.

Less about the psychedelic experience itself. I also think that the existence of these drugs show that someone's reality is constructed from chemicals and cells doing what they do. Psychedelics are like throwing a wrench in a machine. The chemicals and mechanics are working differently now and the conscious experience changes with it. Depending on the drug introduced the perception changes, or consider some drugs like anesthetics where you can be awake and responsive but not have any personal awareness of whats going on.

On DMT trips I felt abstract thought fall apart along with the idea of my self(Ego death maybe?). I couldn't form ideas, and there was no longer an idea of self. "I" didn't exist. But this happens because a chemical is introduced into a system that is generating a conscious experience and it changes because of it. A typical brain creates these abstract ideas, your self identity, interprets senses in a certain way. That's the illusion created.

Since drugs being introduced into the system can turn off that sense of self, I, your soul(anesthesia, ego death) I don't think dualism is really applicable, the mind seems to be generated by the brain/body and its chemicals.

Hope i explained my self alright, not a topic I get to talk or think about much

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#64

Post by monktastic1 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 5:18 AM UTC

toomanydoubts wrote: post #8

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #2

I used to be a pretty frequent psychedelic user. These results sound right to me. I would've considered panpsychism to be totally absurd before I discovered LSD, for instance. Now it's my daily driver.

I've had the same experience. Can't shake the idea that `consciousness == god` and we are all tiny manifestations of this "essence", after some psychedelic trips. My rational mind always goes back to atheism when sober, but the idea is always there in the back of my mind.

Per your description below ("god, the consciousness that is and that experiences the universe") I would have pegged you as an idealist (god is and dreams the universe), not a panpsychist.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#65

Post by tasty_freeze » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 5:20 AM UTC

At the risk of being "that guy", it has to be said that this kind of study is unreliable. Posting a bunch of messages to r/drugs and r/psychedelics to come take their survey is going to suffer from all sorts of statistical biases.

It is still better than the lowest for the study, the sample size of one: "Well this is what I experienced". Yet here I go.

I have always been a materialist, and I've also never done drugs (I'm in my 50s). A few years back I bought some lysergamides and tryptamines online, and over the course of two years did between 20 and 30 experiments, though never of high doses (at most, 200 ug LSD). I found the LSD to be quite interesting, but not the least bit spiritual.

The first time I did 4-aco-dmt (aka psilacetin), a very close relative to psilocybin, was a different story. It was a 25mg-ish dose, taken orally. It was far more intense, and dreamy, and soporific than LSD (for me), and it gave me a glimpse of what something I was hoping to experience: spirituality. It was unfortunately fleeting -- I was lost in "the light" but then became aware that I was actually lying in a bed, and without thinking, opened my eyes for a moment to confirm. I closed my eyes but that moment in the light was gone for good.

I've tried a few more times, but it has mostly been uncomfortable and confusing way to spend a couple hours.

Anyway, I came away from those experiments even more of a materialist than I was before. If a hundred micrograms or a few milligrams of small molecule can so disrupt one's mind, if it can profoundly change your perceptions, if it can induce a feeling of being in a divine presence, it confirmed to me that the brain is all just chemistry.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#66

Post by toomanydoubts » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #44

badtuple wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess one question I'd have is why you think your brain is "operating properly". It's definitely perceiving and constructing a narrative out of those perceptions, but that happens differently for every brain and it really doesn't seem like there's a perfect version of it that's "correct". If you're willing to accept that you can't really rank or judge modes of mental experience quantitatively on some kind of non-re…

You're still not seeing the contradiction between making truth claims and having beliefs and the skeptical position you're entertaining. By your own standards, I could ask how you know there's something called a brain, that it has something to do with perception, etc. Maybe you hallucinated the brain? Maybe it's just some weird belief you have? Maybe hallucinations aren't a thing? How do you know what other brains do…

There's no truth claims. The point is that under the influence of psychedelics, you realize you can't know the truth.

I understand you're looking at it from a scientific point of view, but the discussion is not scientific. Consciousness is probably the hardest body of knowledge to integrate with science. Nobody knows where consciousness comes from. Nobody knows how to measure it.

I can tell you: "I'm conscious and aware", but there's no way I can prove to you I'm not a philosophical zombie(someone that acts like it's conscious, but isn't). Currently, there's no way to measure consciousness.

>By your own standards, I could ask how you know there's something called a brain, that it has something to do with perception, etc. Maybe you hallucinated the brain? Maybe it's just some weird belief you have? Maybe hallucinations aren't a thing? How do you know what other brains do or don't do differently? And why can't some of them be wrong?

I think you nailed it. I don't know whether there's a brain, or if there is something else, and this something else is hallucinating this reality where there is a brain, or maybe something else entirely. Sure, we can make scientific claims about stuff when analyzing the reality within the bounds of our perception, but if you try to go beyondg that, you're own your own.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#67

Post by Elof » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 5:23 AM UTC

aunty_helen wrote: post #12

cipheredStones wrote: post #11

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

If astronauts can have their worldview changed by going to space why can't a psychedelic experience do the same. Both are just a new perspective.

100%. To abstract it even further, I have some defining moments from my teens that are monumental to me and uneventful at best to everyone else. Gaining perspective is largely an individual experience, it's just that some things seem to have more influence in sparking a change in perspective than others

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#68

Post by jklinger410 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 5:25 AM UTC

Elof wrote: post #59

jklinger410 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, that's not what they mean. My carpet is not changing color, my mother's face isn't melting. That's not happening on a physical level. My sober perception is repeatable and verifiable. It exists no matter my state of mind. It's novel to make yourself see things that are unreal. It's novel to have your emotions fluctuate wildly. But it's just novel, and unreal, and nothing more.

I think the point is that your sober perception exists only in your state of mind. My sober perception of the 'same' experiences you have is almost definitely not going to be the same as yours. So an altered state potentially gives you the realization that your personal experience isn't universal reality. In other words a personal perception of reality is not reality itself. This is why we have philosophy in general.…

This is such a silly conversation. We have cameras and all sorts of equipment that tracks a constant reality. Who gives a shit if people perceive it with varying levels of accuracy?

What does it matter that introducing substances to the brain can reduce your ability to perceive it?

There is evidence of reality, and childish mind games and semantic debates that it might not.

I drop you off in the Gobi desert with no water (or acid) and let's test the boundaries of reality. Let's see if you can perceive yourself some water.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#69

Post by sedivy94 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 5:26 AM UTC

jklinger410 wrote: post #54

e40 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's what the GP meant. I think they meant your perception of reality can take more than one form. Often people fall into the trap of thinking their current perception of reality must be The One, but clearly what many people believe is very much not reality. It's just their current feeling about what their senses are telling them. In fact, in many cases, said perception is created from very little dat…

Sorry, that's not what they mean. My carpet is not changing color, my mother's face isn't melting. That's not happening on a physical level. My sober perception is repeatable and verifiable. It exists no matter my state of mind. It's novel to make yourself see things that are unreal. It's novel to have your emotions fluctuate wildly. But it's just novel, and unreal, and nothing more.

Psychedelic perception is also repeatable. And sober perception is not reliable.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#70

Post by toomanydoubts » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 5:31 AM UTC

jklinger410 wrote: post #68

Elof wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that your sober perception exists only in your state of mind. My sober perception of the 'same' experiences you have is almost definitely not going to be the same as yours. So an altered state potentially gives you the realization that your personal experience isn't universal reality. In other words a personal perception of reality is not reality itself. This is why we have philosophy in general.…

This is such a silly conversation. We have cameras and all sorts of equipment that tracks a constant reality. Who gives a shit if people perceive it with varying levels of accuracy? What does it matter that introducing substances to the brain can reduce your ability to perceive it? There is evidence of reality, and childish mind games and semantic debates that it might not. I drop you off in the Gobi desert with no w…

Old cameras recorded in black and white. Did people in the 20s live in B&W? Or maybe the camera is a device that attempts to record a picture of reality at some point in space-time, with lossy compression, to match the perceptions of reality of its creators?

The thing is, you can have a consistent model of reality when you're only looking at it from the inside. This tells you nothing about the outside.

Eg: if you're living in a simulated universe, everything is consistent, your cameras and the dry desert. Still, outside the thing you perceive as reality, there could be anything.