All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022 • Hacker News Board

Re: All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022

#121

Post by Someone » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

cool_dude85 wrote: post #100

chrisco255 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disney was founded on Mickey Mouse. Yes, they made major motion pictures out of old myths and legends, like Cinderella and Robin Hood, but those stories have always been public domain and you can write a book or movie about them with no problem.

Not sure about their finances back then, but I have to guess that their feature films were the money makers and the shorts less so. And I think the grandparent's point is that Mickey Mouse today is in some sense analogous to your Cinderellas and Robin Hoods in the 30s... only you can't make your own movie about him.

Back then, their feature films weren’t money makers, as they didn’t make them.

Their first feature film was very profitable, but it was from about 15 years later (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White_and_the_Seven_Dwarf...).

However, their next two movies (Pinocchio, Fantasia) cost them money because they were released during World War Two, when they couldn’t show them in large parts of the world.

They needed Dumbo to make up for that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbo#Box_office), then Bambi wasn’t a huge success, either (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bambi#Box_office)

So, I guess it wasn’t till after World War Two that their feature films became profitable. They survived, so chances are the shorts brought in money.

Re: All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022

#122

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

pie_flavor wrote: post #102

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I think we should just work at doing away with the concept. The idea of it was to encourage the creation of works by providing a limited term of artificial scarcity so said works could participate in the market. But in the information age, where copying information is as close to free as makes no odds, I think that makes a lot less sense than it used to. That's without even considering that giant corporation…

You have said it was originally to help out the market, and you have said copying information is now nearly free, but you forgot to say how or why the first part is incongruous with the second. Why does it make less sense than it used to? Which of our new capabilities could be leveraged by a new system?

You used to have to recoup the costs of publishing as well as fund the author. Binding books was and is not free, but copying bits effectively is.

Re: All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022

#123

Post by kristopolous » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

hippie_queen wrote: post #17

Can't wait to finally sample Thomas Edison on the phonograph for my Soundcloud tracks, and not having to worry about the police knocking at my door!

Hey be careful what you wish for!

Check out "I am the Edison phonograph" from 1906 https://youtu.be/EQC9CjFezrQ

I'd use that, totally would.

Re: All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022

#124

Post by nitrogen » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #59

dahart wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal ownership is already limited by the owner’s lifetime and automatically transfers when they die. Copyrights, on the other hand, outlive the creator.

Generational wealth is a significant problem as winner take all dynamics tend to concentrate wealth within families until they get so powerful that they form aristocracies. The US is new enough that it’s aristocracy is just getting started. Several European countries lack them because war or revolution hit the reset button, but if you look at a country like the UK, you will see it alive and well.

On the other hand, generational wealth below obscene amounts is a vital stabilizing force in a society. A middle to upper middle class family passing on a boost to each subsequent generation is a good thing. Grandparents help pay for their grandkids' schooling, kids have some sense of stability and a safety net, etc.

We need many layers of safety nets and stabilizing forces, because every layer is prone to different types of failure. There is a natural and desirable support structure of individial -> family -> community -> state -> humanity that allows society and individuals to survive and thrive through changing circumstances. Too much reliance on any one layer, especially the state, is a recipe for fragility or tyranny.

When every individual has an emergency fund, every family has a nest egg, every community pulls together in time of need, and every state provides a safety net of last resort, we can weather any storm.

Re: All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022

#125

Post by dahart » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

skywal_l wrote: post #84

dahart wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they they should be able to recoup their investment in a timely manner and 10 years is not that huge with all the means of electronic distribution we have today. It’s neither fair nor accurate to point at the speed distribution as an indicator of the speed of building a viable business. It’s a fact that it’s common for a business to need a decade to build it’s business pipeline before the business is viable and ful…

> From the perspective and of copyright specifically, it’s also a mistake to assume that all business can move at the pace of electronically distributed software I think you are confusing copyrights with patents or trademarks. Copyright do not protect physical hardware or goods. As far as I know, almost all copyrightable works can be transferred electronically. After all, we are talking about the right to copy (and d…

> Copyright do not protect physical hardware or goods. […] almost all copyrightable works can be transferred electronically

Don’t conflate “can be” with “are”. Copyrights absolutely protect books and posters and phonograph records; physical goods is how the law originated, and physical copies is a big part of what the law’s language still protects to this day. There are big problems with copyright law because it hasn’t yet been adequately adapted to the invention of the internet.

There is plenty of overlap when it comes to the business of physical goods. Copyrights do protect parts of the designs of many physical goods, and the sources and driver software of computer hardware, for example. Copyrights also protect marketing and advertising material and many other parts of a fledgling business.

What are we discussing at this point? I agree with you that copyright should probably end with the author (though I would say there should be a minimum term, to account for the many reasonable possible scenarios like being part of a business, accidental death, old age, etc., etc.). I don’t think 10 years is enough, and I don’t think that tech moving quickly is a valid reason to shorten copyright. There are valid reasons to shorten copyright, so we should discuss those instead.

Re: All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022

#126

Post by cma » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #81

Hokusai wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, anyone that had a personal attachment to that music is dead. The current goal of copyright is to let companies own the culture you grew with. All the movies, music, books and games that defined who you are will not enter the public domain until you are dead or very old. Companies like Disney were founded on well known stories. They will not allow anybody else too accomplish the same.

Disney was founded on Mickey Mouse. Yes, they made major motion pictures out of old myths and legends, like Cinderella and Robin Hood, but those stories have always been public domain and you can write a book or movie about them with no problem.

Original style Mickey himself is mostly just a traceover of Oswald with different ears.

Re: All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022

#127

Post by notJim » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

grishka wrote: post #115

t-writescode wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2-3 years is no time at all. Someone could hand a movie studio a script in hopes of it being made a movie, the movie studio could wait 4 years, and then make the movie, with no harm to them whatsoever.

Huh. A movie studio. Yes, my proposal also has a nice side effect of filtering out those who are in it for the money, not self-expression. The world would become a better place if there were no "entertainment industry".

People who are in it for self-expression need to pay the bills too.

Re: All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022

#128

Post by nitrogen » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #41

SlimyHog wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would just mean that rich companies/people will get to keep the copyright and others do not. We're in this whole situation where things don't enter the public domain for 100 years because of Disney's lobbying.

On an exponential curve, even companies would be thinking hard about renewal a few doublings into the process. Even Disney would start getting to the point where they'd be picking and choosing and not just forking over $(2^n × number of works) every year. Also, I often advocate this, and to some extent I consider it a strategic retreat. Fine. You're a big company and you want to own your stuff forever. But behind the…

This would definitely be better than the current system of basically forever minus one day, but still leaves the problem that a few giant corporations own giant chunks of our hearts, minds, and childhoods.

The zeitgeist of our time should belong to us, at least after a decade or two.

Re: All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022

#129

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

mattl wrote: post #103

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I think we should just work at doing away with the concept. The idea of it was to encourage the creation of works by providing a limited term of artificial scarcity so said works could participate in the market. But in the information age, where copying information is as close to free as makes no odds, I think that makes a lot less sense than it used to. That's without even considering that giant corporation…

But how would that begin to work in practice? Someone makes an album or a book and everyone an just copy it without any fee?

Yes. And why not? That I can do that so easily today even with copyright just goes to show how post-scarcity information is.

The problem, of course, is that the creators of the work still need to participate in a scarcity economy to live. There are examples of efforts being made to fund creators outside the traditional scarcity-based mechanism, such as patreon funding, github sponsorship, and the like, although I admit they appear to only currently be useful for those who would be unable to leverage the traditional system effectively anyway.

While I may not have the answer to funding creators, I firmly believe that we'd be going backwards to insist on forcing scarcity into a post-scarcity space.

Re: All sound recordings prior to 1923 will enter the US public domain in 2022

#130

Post by adolph » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

lapetitejort wrote: post #120

chrisco255 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disney was founded on Mickey Mouse. Yes, they made major motion pictures out of old myths and legends, like Cinderella and Robin Hood, but those stories have always been public domain and you can write a book or movie about them with no problem.

> those stories have always been public domain and you can write a book or movie about them with no problem. Those stories were retelling of stories which were retelling of stories which were... Disney made it law that no one is allowed to retell their stories but them. Approaching or alluding to their retelling can carry stiff penalties. It's antithetical to a universal human institution that has existed since befor…

This is interesting to think about. The Disney retellings in some ways are evolutionary winners that are also dead ends. Outside of Disney they can’t evolve unlike pre-Disney. The Disney retellings are so popular that other retellings are almost extinct. When Disney goes away, does the story lineages disappear? Do copies of older retellings resurge? Do totally different story lineages take the place of the Disney stories?