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Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

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Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I've never actually found a single piece of software, FOSS or not, that is anywhere close to "utopian" (or barely even "functioning"). Probably because of which fields you work in. But in software development, I'd say it is almost exclusively the case all over the board. If you work in digital arts, then Blender is probably the best end-user application example I can think of.

Can you specify some specific pieces of software-development software that you consider to be "utopian"? I'm a software developer and have used the following pieces of software that were very non-utopian: gcc gdb sbcl vim emacs vscode atom tmux bash fish make cmake automake autotools m4 cpython pip mypy pyinstaller firefox gradle ant sbt chisel npm qmk (that is - everything I've touched). I also know that virtually e…

To clarify, when you say these are "non-utopian", it would help to know what that means to you.

I honestly think blender is a technical marvel that in many cases is better than its proprietary counterparts. The bar is quite high for these kinds of specialised and very expensive software. So, if blender is "bad", then perhaps the bar is set so high, that I don't think I can give a satisfactory answer.

"Utopian" in that there is nothing that could be better or improved is a higher bar than what I had in mind. But, just "better or equal than its proprietary counterparts", I do feel there are examples. Linux itself being a very clear one. There is a reason why it's the most used operating system by a mile (something like 90-98%). More contentiously I would also include it for desktop use. Hmm, perhaps AOSP also.

Out of the many tools you've mentioned, I've used most of them as well, and I don't consider any of them particularly great. But, what are the closed source alternatives that are better?

Perhaps also fish, as I cannot think of a better proprietary shell. Powershell and its windows integration is uaf.

Maybe some of my examples are skewed by the value I place on it not being controlled by corporate interests. That my usage isn't profiled, that I'm not exposed to dark patterns for KPIs at some board meeting.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#412
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft controls the OS, they already can track activity of any userland program, can't they?

I suppose they can, but that would be a new low to inspect the memory of their competitors processes to monitor traffic. With most chrome traffic SSL, I don’t think they could tell much from the network traffic. If Microsoft started doing this, it would be a lot of negative attention. Whereas Chrome users haven’t cared about logging stuff for years now.

>With most chrome traffic SSL, I don’t think they could tell much from the network traffic.

It's encrypted in transit, but it has to be decrypted to be meaningful to the end user and that's where they can eavesdrop, the kernel has full access to user memory and all syscalls, no?

>If Microsoft started doing this, it would be a lot of negative attention

They have a proprietary closed source kernel which can be reverse engineered by very few people outside Microsoft, I think putting a little backdoor there would be less noticeable than showing a message box to every user.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox's greatest fault is Mozilla. They reinvent the UI every couple years, and seem hell-bent on stripping away power-user features. They also managed to ruin their privacy-oriented Firefox focus browser on mobile, by making it redirect website links to compatible apps - completely butchering its only use case as a private browser that lets you be online without any permanent sessions

>by making it redirect website links to compatible apps You can turn this off

Perhaps they updated it since, but this wasn't the case on focus two or three months ago. After a lot of googling, I could find other people mentionining the same issue but no solution.

Ultimately I rolled back my installation to a previous build, and have refused to update it since. I'll give the latest build a try on my backup phone.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you specify some specific pieces of software-development software that you consider to be "utopian"? I'm a software developer and have used the following pieces of software that were very non-utopian: gcc gdb sbcl vim emacs vscode atom tmux bash fish make cmake automake autotools m4 cpython pip mypy pyinstaller firefox gradle ant sbt chisel npm qmk (that is - everything I've touched). I also know that virtually e…

To clarify, when you say these are "non-utopian", it would help to know what that means to you. I honestly think blender is a technical marvel that in many cases is better than its proprietary counterparts. The bar is quite high for these kinds of specialised and very expensive software. So, if blender is "bad", then perhaps the bar is set so high, that I don't think I can give a satisfactory answer. "Utopian" in tha…

> To clarify, when you say these are "non-utopian", it would help to know what that means to you.

I'm using the dictionary definition of "utopian", which is "Of, relating to, describing or having the characteristics of a Utopia." where "utopia" means "An ideally perfect place, especially in its social, political, and moral aspects." - that is, perfect software. Sorry if that wasn't clear - maybe I should have started by clarifying that first.

Now, even allowing for some very small resource cost (I think that it's unrealistic to expect even perfect software to consume no CPU, memory, or disk space), "ideally perfect" software is: low-resource-use, responsive, high-throughput, easy-to-setup, easy-to-learn, easy-to-use, easy-to-understand, ergonomic (efficient from a UI perspective), backward-compatible, forward-compatible, stable, well-documented, extensible (containing a powerful extension language and development environment for that language, and a large API that extensions/scripts can use), introspective, good error messages, easy to compile and develop, robust against internal and external errors, high skill cap, has all of the features that you need, and the largest force-multiplier possible without resorting to AI.

Given that definition, I hope you can see why I don't categorize any programs as being "utopian".

As for Blender - I don't use it frequently (I've just done some hobbyist modeling), but I can still name a few issues: can't open multiple blend-files at once, can't do real-time collaboration on a blend-file, no blend-file versioning, API in Python (which is not a great language, either by itself or for an extension system), no IDE for development of Python extensions in Blender, cmake build system for Blender itself, bad integration of operators into scripting (for decent integration, see Emacs' interactive functions, described more generally at [1]), no hot-patching of Blender code (emacs can hot-patch elisp code as it runs, and elisp makes up the majority of the tool, including almost all of the text-editing functionality - the same applies to Atom and JavaScript), no introspective facilities for Blender itself.

> Linux itself being a very clear one.

I don't believe that this is clearly the case. Linux is only the most used kernel (not OS/userspace) because of its inclusion into Android, and we have little reason to believe that the Android company chose Linux based on its technical merits and not because the only other alternative (Windows NT) required expensive licensing. On the desktop, Windows has a 95% market-share - does that mean that it's a technically superior desktop operating system? In fact, in the server realm, we also don't have any reason to believe that it was chosen for any reason other than the fact that it's free.

> But, what are the closed source alternatives that are better?

In most cases, you're right, there are none. (with a few exceptions: Visual Studio, PyCharm, PowerShell (I don't know what "uaf" means, but I do know that PowerShell's typed nature makes it infinitely better than untyped bash), Allegro/LispWorks, Sublime Text) But, I wasn't trying to say that open-source programs aren't better on average than proprietary programs - just that (a) there are exceptions and (b) everything is bad. That is - "bad", rather than "better" - relative vs. absolutely measurements. When you used "utopian", that's universally accepted to be an absolute standard of measurement, and given the common definition of it (listed above), I don't think that it applies to the vast majority of software.

[1] https://breckyunits.com/user-methods.html

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#415
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux has been making progress but still isn't a good alternative for the common user unless they have an expert to rely upon when something breaks down I'd say there are 2 main problems with Linux (for non-techies, etc, etc): 1 - They are not using 'linux', they are using one of the main distros, that can have some big differences between them. That also happens with Android, BUT, people that use a Galaxy S20 will…

There is only one main problem for linux and it is the catch 22 that most software is still mostly written for windows. I'm not talking about the generic off-the-shelf software like office/paint/browsers which have pretty good alternatives, but the 25+ years of legacy win32 stuff which still runs most businesses and factories. Lets face it nobody wants to re-write that program that Bill wrote in 2001 in Delphi or VB…

oh yeah, sure. My comment was meant for personal/home use. Work is a complete other thing since it adds more restrictions.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#416
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> macOS only runs on very expensive hardware and doesn't run most programs people need (because the business world is still Windows oriented) This is an outdated take - it's functionally untrue in most business settings. Gaming on the other hand, is very much still mostly Windows only.

functionally untrue in most business settings Most business settings have some absolutely critical custom software written in Winforms or something that can't be ported, plus an entire machine of IT personnel and software tools that would be just as costly to convert.

“custom software written in Winforms or something that can't be ported”

I haven’t seen any of these in almost a decade. there are specialized use cases that require some specialized software, but for most business operations the software works cross platform or runs from web apps. I used to keep a parallels instance to run MS SQL server for some tasks but we have even transitioned that to a less propriety setup.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#417
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> macOS only runs on very expensive hardware and doesn't run most programs people need (because the business world is still Windows oriented) This is an outdated take - it's functionally untrue in most business settings. Gaming on the other hand, is very much still mostly Windows only.

I'd agree if they still had 32-bit support. Nowadays though, even most creatives are getting frustrated by the vicious upgrade cycle and outright refusal to continue support for fairly modern tooling. If by "business" you mean word processing and web browsing, then... yeah. Chromebooks are also a competitor if we're bringing the bar that low.

When I installed Catalina, only 6 32-bit apps were flagged. I had already known about one of them and had moved on to a replacement app. I had forgotten about the others and this was just some junk cleanup for me.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#418
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iOS Safari's level as the only browser people should use. FWIW, iOS doesn't chide you when you download Chrome or Firefox. Of course Apple requires them to use the iOS rendering engine - but that's perhaps a slightly different point.

On macOS Safari prompts me to set it as a default browser every time I launch it.

I always use Firefox and have never seen such a prompt. Do you just close the prompt without answering “no, thank you”? Maybe it is waiting for an answer?

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux has been making progress but still isn't a good alternative for the common user unless they have an expert to rely upon when something breaks down IME "common users" already rely on an expert when their Windows OS breaks down. Not long ago I had to walk my aunt through opening the command prompt in Windows 10 and entering the command to do a full reboot (as opposed to that hybrid shutdown+hibernation) because…

In my experience the real issue with Linux is that it’s hard to set up. Especially when you have/get an OS preinstalled with Windows, to just using Windows. And that most applications / drivers don’t support it nearly as well. There are many many distributions. When I started Linux, I first tried Ubuntu because that was recommended to me. Ubuntu is installed with Xfce which looks and basically is clunky and outdated.…

For the last 10+ years my Debian-install routine for devices is:

- `dd` the latest Debian netinst onto some old, small on-desk USB-stick,

- Insert USB-stick into target device, power on, get to boot-selection screen.

- Hook up my phone via USB to target, set it to USB-tethering mode (To bypass initial (wifi-)firmware issue(s))

- NOW press ENTER in the boot-device selection screen.

- Select Expert mode in the Installer Menu, this enables:

- Selection of "non-free" package source

- Enable backported software

- Select minimal install (get the rest after Ethernet/Wifi Firmware is installed)

- Reboot, still using USB-tethering

- Install needed firmwares: `apt-get install firmware-` (choose correct one, or install many/all)

- (optional, but recommended on devices younger than 2 years: Install backports kernel (currently 5.14): `apt-get install linux-image-amd64/bullseye-backports`

- (Optional, but needed when batadv-meshing with Openwrt master on 5.10: install kernel from debian testing (5.15.x) , with command similar to above ^bullseye^testing (after adding testing source)

- run tasksel, select "Default Desktop", or whatever you were planning to install anyway

That is a "detour" of less than 10 minutes.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#420

Back when Edgeium was new and just Chrome but with a lot of Google cruft removed, I actually used Edge instead of Chrome when I was on Windows. It was the same browser with some additional tweaks that I quite liked. Then Microsoft started this aggressive, disruptive push to bring it to iOS Safari's level as the only browser people should use. I don't know any good operating systems for normal people anymore. Windows…

> Linux has been making progress but still isn't a good alternative for the common user unless they have an expert to rely upon when something breaks down I'd say there are 2 main problems with Linux (for non-techies, etc, etc): 1 - They are not using 'linux', they are using one of the main distros, that can have some big differences between them. That also happens with Android, BUT, people that use a Galaxy S20 will…

Point number two is more the other way around. You plug a device into Linux and it works. You plug it into windows, and it only works once it's downloaded and installed the driver.

But in both cases, actual user interaction required is very little and decreasing with time.

I will admit though, that if something doesn't work immediately with Linux, there's a good chance you won't be able to get it working with Linux.

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