Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#811

Post by m_fayer » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #752

oezi wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is mentioned enough by the media. Thank you. But it seems strange to realize that people don't want to do a job where you have to watch people die like flies over the course of two to three weeks. No money in the world makes that acceptable for many. With the availability of the vaccines (at least in the developed world) this has become a pandemic of the uninformed know-it-alls ("Querdenker" = Crooked thinker, as…

If the problem in Germany is anything like in Sweden, then the issue is not that "people don't want to do a job where you have to watch people die". It is 100% a lack of funding and poor management. In the last 20 years the standard "joke" (ha ha, only true) about the universal health system is that you need to be in good health in order to have enough energy to fight for your right to get help. The health care debt…

I'm in a Berlin medtech company closely related to GPs and have multiple other connections to area hospitals. From this perspective I would say everything you've said is entirely accurate for at least this part of Germany, if not the whole country.

It's really a shockingly well kept secret, especially to the outside world. Much like the utterly dysfunctional rail system.

Before the pandemic, I would have said that the country's healthcare system was about a decade away from resource-crisis. Now, it may have already started. I'm terrified of ending up in a hospital, even if there's no covid-wave ongoing. I do not want my life in the hands of the overworked traumatized remnants.

The way this country treats healthcare workers is shameful.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#812

Post by m4rtink » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 2:51 AM UTC

oezi wrote: post #486

fileeditview wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now th…

It is mentioned enough by the media. Thank you. But it seems strange to realize that people don't want to do a job where you have to watch people die like flies over the course of two to three weeks. No money in the world makes that acceptable for many. With the availability of the vaccines (at least in the developed world) this has become a pandemic of the uninformed know-it-alls ("Querdenker" = Crooked thinker, as…

It's quite interesting that the main tabloid here in Czech Republic is doing very solid covid reporting - still kinda in the personal stories people can relate tabloids do - just this time telling stories of people severely ill with covid, mostly unvaccinated or interviews with medical personnel about what their hell looks like. Frankly I did not expect that from them and I'm sincerely hoping it helps at least someone to stop believing in bullshit.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#813

Post by 1123581321 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 2:52 AM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #656

pokepim wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, what you saying is not realistical. This is more like wishful thinking and would only work in suppressive utopia (if that’s a thing). We as a society had only one shot at doing a lockdown that could work and it was at the beginning of march 2020. Some countries actually managed to have almost no cases but they had to do harsh lockdowns and everyone needed to comply. After that with 2nd and 3rd waves we have seen…

Well this is what is being seen in Germany right now - restriction fatigue -> case explosion -> overwhelmed hospitals -> restrictions. People may be unwilling, but at some point (i.e. when healthcare systems start failing) restrictions will be enforced, and people will comply.

Restrictions also become either increasingly lax or actively resisted. It's not an end of story. Part of the failure of the last two years was the unwillingness to think what will happen after the latest sure solution arrives and to govern with a goal of doing well across several phases of the pandemic instead of just one.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#814

Post by SV_BubbleTime » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 2:58 AM UTC

m4rtink wrote: post #807

lee wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We have viable treatments that work and could be prescribed en masse. Not discussed, not mentioned." Can you explicitly mention what those treatments are? I'm genuinely curious.

The anti-covid pill from Pfizer looks impressive: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/pfizer-s-good-news...

I thought I remember reading something early on about protease inhibitors and COVID, cool to see that is coming out now.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#815

Post by m4rtink » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:00 AM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #5

I’m confused. I thought vaccinated people can spread the virus. Why are they not locked down too?

Another reason, at least initially, was to motivate people to get vaccinated. Still makes sense when vaccinated people transmit less, less likely will get infected and are much less likely to get infected.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#816

Post by snidane » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:02 AM UTC

landemva wrote: post #796

lmilcin wrote: post #790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have viable treatments that work and could be prescribed en masse. Not discussed, not mentioned. Because the real problem are going to be people that will be far too sick for any treatment to help them avoid hospitalisation. And overloaded hospitals will not benefit a lot from the fact there is some treatment available. The system will benefit much more from people not requiring hospitalisation in the first plac…

'... that can only be achieved by having a large percentage of population vaccinated.' Only?? The mortality profile is grossly _weighted_ by lifestyle choices such as low cardiovascular health, type 2 diabetes, and obesity. I am in decent health, got quite sick with the 'rona this year, and toughed it out at home. I later got blood test to confirm anti-bodies and a recovered letter from Dr.

These cohorts are the cash cows for pharma industry. Surprise surprise they'd rather sacrifice 99.9% of healthy population to save their major source of perpetual income. No hate against chronically ill, obese and diabetic, just pointing out the incentives here.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#817

Post by pcwalton » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:02 AM UTC

landemva wrote: post #792

jacobolus wrote: post #777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are various antiviral drugs which are orders of magnitude more expensive, have mediocre efficacy and a worse side effect profile compared to any of the main vaccines, and must be started within days of initial infection to work properly. They are a great addition (besides vaccines and non-pharmaceutical public health measures) for treating high-risk patients for whom the vaccines don’t provide perfect protectio…

Ivermectin has anti-viral properties, has great multi-decade safety history, and is cheaper than a soda. It also has been shown to be an effective treatment when used early in disease.

We just had an article about this. I am loath to link to Scott Alexander, but it's the most likely thing to persuade HN users. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-t...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#818

Post by Jansen312 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:06 AM UTC

passing_by_and wrote: post #767

What I really like about all these different threads and topics on COVID is the mastery of control that is shown. We have viable treatments that work and could be prescribed en masse. Not discussed, not mentioned. The sole discussion topic is "vaccines" and mask theatre. Totally ignoring any inconvenient data about either. Everyone's focus is to tear each other apart about which level of destruction is best for the n…

The issue here is really cost to public. Non vaccinated has high chance to get severe complication when infected. They will utilize hospitals and healthcare whether public or private. For private, we can choose to ignore as the price will adjust by themselves to determine who lives and who dies. Nobody will bat an eye if a high-end boutique clinic let a poor Covid patient dies because bed and ventilator is too expensive. However it is expected hospitals must admit these patients and cure/care them whether they can pay or not. For public healthcare, this will turn into ethics and politics issue because government "killed" them by refusing "universal human rights" healthcare to them.

The easier way to solve this outcome is basically mandating vaccines which will reduce the loads on healthcare and hence general public cost. The correct thing to do on the other hand is to force all non vaccinated to sign away universal healthcare for Covid. They will bear the full cost and can be turn away from hospitals to die if hospitals have little beds, prioritized over vaccinated and if they too poor to pay full unsubsidized cost. No western countries leader will dare to implement the "correct way" even if non vaccinated wants to. And to top it all, many non vaccinated understood this is the correct way but still want government to cover their just-in-case severe complication hospital bills for free or extremely heavily subsidized bills. Basically a lot of non vaccinated wants to eat the cake and still have the cake. This is the actual situation now. And no media wants to discuss about it publicly. MSM probably have no appetite to discuss intelligently these days anyway.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#819

Post by 1123581321 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:09 AM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #362

throwaway47292 wrote: post #335

I am double vaccinated, pro vax, would get booster if I can, but if this happens in my country I will join the riots. I dont have solution, but if people dont want to get vaccinated they shouldn't be forced, period. I am afraid this pressure will create people that are against all vaccines, and when we get like 20% of new parents not vaccinating their new lockdown babies (which are a lot, everyone i know who can be p…

I would be fine with unvaxxed people remaining unvaxxed of their own free will if it were also a situation where the law said that anyone who does not get vaccinated during a pandemic when a vaccine is available (and obviously has no underlying medical condition that would put them at risk for a significant injury due to vaccination) while incurring significant medical bills for said pandemic would be liable for all…

Covid hasn't had an effect on insurance premiums so far. In some plan pools it saves money since treatment isn't overly costly and it has put off expensive electives (though this is offset by the general trend for healthcare costs to rise.) This was reflected in proxies such as the reduced profits of hospital healthcare organizations in the US, like HCA.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#820

Post by m4rtink » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:09 AM UTC

MauranKilom wrote: post #401

renewiltord wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the wide variety of US state responses, no one is experiencing "complete failure of our healthcare" so I think we'll be all right.

German hospitals are currently transferring patients with severe cases from high incidence regions to lower ones (and the military has to help with nursing roles) because they simply can't stem the number of severe cases in some regions. The situation is as close to "complete failure of our healthcare" as it could be. If you take that as evidence of "we'll be alright", you're playing the white hat guy in https://xkcd…

Patient transfers are also happening here in Czech Republic as well. There was a big convoy moving patients from East to slightly less affected west of the country & since then others are transferred daily via helicopters as hospital capacity dictates.