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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

cnn.com

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#701

Post by beaner »

tablespoon wrote: post #603
chippy wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always . This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might fin…

>> I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country.... >> How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. > Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always. That's an unhelpful muddying of the waters. If…

I think assuming that it's out of "spite" is an example of not realizing how "your side" might be causing the division.

There are a lot of people who have already had covid and now have antibodies, who were also never in, and continue not to be in, a risky demographic. The risk for these people is very, very low already.

On top of that, the vaccine is not entirely without risk. There have been many reports of side effects, specifically heart issues in young males. There have been some deaths.

The counterargument might be, "okay, that may be technically true, but the risk is very, very low." And the people who do not want the vaccine, who are not in a risky demographic, might say in reply to you: exactly, that's the same thing we're saying about the virus.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#702

Post by bruce343434 »

ikrenji wrote: post #692
bruce343434 wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the recent evidence of spiking infections and other events, I am no longer convinced vaccines are a good measure. The Netherlands is 85% vaccinated. They said we would get herd immunity at only 70%, and yet here we are with talks of "boosters", at the brink of yet another lockdown, due to yet another spike in infections. I think we need to simply get sick at large, get better and stay immune. We need to get it o…

no thank you. you let your body be ravaged by an exotic viral disease from asian bats. I will take my booster

Would it be less bad if the virus was bred on Dutch grounds by another animal? Otherwise I am not sure what your are implying or why you bring it up.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#703

Post by KarlKemp »

kelnos wrote: post #601
chippy wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always . This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might fin…

If 70% want one thing and 30% want another, it doesn't matter who "caused" the division; in a democratic society you should be doing the thing that 70% of the people want. Except! And this is a big "except": when doing the thing the majority wants would violate the civil rights of the minority. The problem (in the US, at least; I can't speak for Germany) is that the minority is trying to paint vaccination as a civil…

Yes… Democracy isn’t two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.

That being said, if you declare any consideration of the actual policies to be off limits for supposedly being subjective, you won’t ever be able to make any decision.

Specifically, in this case, vaccinations are safe & beneficial. And even if governments are subject to elections, and their powers are subject to frustration even by minorities opposing them, reality is not. A principled argument cannot be made in the abstract, leaving the wisdom of vaccinations open. Opponents pretend that it is possible because they do not stand a chance on those merits, and seek to instead shift the debate to “freedom vs. safety” or whatever safe in the knowledge that it is impossible to argue for either of those conflicting values to ever ‘win’.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#704

Post by quitit »

chippy wrote: post #449
timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always . This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might fin…

Cool - We'll save this kind of discussion for when we're choosing ice cream flavours. Not making decisions that affect the health of not just the nation, but the follow-on global ramifications due to mutations.

As for the "other side" - this is what democracy is about. So if the elected representatives and majority of the nation are for it, then that's the decision made.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#705

Post by dang »

muttantt wrote: post #110
shoto_io wrote: post #7

As a double vaccinated German, I am very disappointed and angry about this move. Our politicians have failed to prepare the country for the Winter (who could have known...). We lack a basic strategy how to cope with Covid. And now they try to fix this by dividing the country in two. This will have no effect whatsoever on the infections, it will just continue to drive a divide that is already existing and will make an…

You are missing the point - the division IS their end goal.

Could you please stop posting flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments? You've unfortunately done it a lot and we're trying for something else here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#706

Post by rimliu »

atsaloli wrote: post #695
Invictus0 wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legality of the government forcing a medical procedure for the common good been decided by the supreme Court nearly 100 years ago. There is no specific "liberty" that is being violated here.

I have seen violations of human rights. Those are the freedoms I was referring to. See the UN Declaration of Human Rights: https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... Article 13 - right to freedom of movement (lockdowns, anyone?) Article 20 - right to peaceful assembly (lockdowns again) Article 24 - right to work (mandatory vaccination as a condition of employment)

No no, you do not understand—it's for common good! /s

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#707

Post by umvi »

jl6 wrote: post #604

I guess it’s easier to pass a law like this, than a law which puts the unvaccinated at the back of the queue when hospital beds run out.

And yet... if you asked the unvaccinated which they prefer (between being forced to be vaccinated and going to the back of the queue when beds run out), they will probably prefer the latter. It is disturbing to do things against people's will "for their own good"

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#708

Post by jacquesm »

tomp wrote: post #672
jacquesm wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really the problem though. See, no matter how many ICU beds you have, the people going to the ICU are about 40% or so likely to die from COVID and the remainder will recover but will take a very long time to do so and have a significant chance of having long term residual effects and/or complications. You don't really wish that kind of thing on anybody. So you try to avoid people going to the ICU in the fi…

You're missing the point. The reason people are even mentioning ICU beds are because they're trying to shift the vaccination argument from "do it for yourself, if you want to" to "you have to do it for others". If we had enough ICU beds, there would be NO argument to force people to get vaccinated, just like there is no argument to force people to not smoke or not be fat.

If we had enough ICU beds there would still be an argument because it will cause a bunch of people to die. If you don't care about that then that's your problem, but personally I'd like those old people to stick around for a bit longer, and keep in mind that one day you too will be old.

The arguments for vaccination go a lot further than just a lack of ICU beds.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#709

Post by hncurious »

If we were a serious society, then the conversation would be about:

immune vs non-immune

high risk vs low risk

infectious vs non-infectious

But no, it's jabbed vs unjabbed. It doesn't make sense. Everyone in Germany who wants the vaccine has had it, and if you've had Covid, you're about as protected as the vaccinated. Furthermore, leaky vaccines don't prevent transmission, can't eliminate the virus (animal reservoirs) and may even make it more virulent. See Marek's disease: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15757475/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/leaky-vac...

This is not a rational, science-based policy. This is about punishing the non-compliant, mostly the under class. As the upper class continues with their events surrounded by masked servants, with endless examples of officials breaking their own rules. Worse, we are normalizing the dehumanization of a group of people who we're told are diseased and dangerous and it's all their fault. Germany of all places should be absolutely allergic to such rhetoric.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#710

Post by xdennis »

elorant wrote: post #274
locallost wrote: post #127

As a foreigner living in Germany I could live with it if there were otherwise sound measures, but it's mostly been a bunch of wishful thinking. There was a rush last summer to open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early and a lot of people really understood it as "corona is over". Even this I could understand, but this year they do the same thing again! Surprise, surprise that there is a…

No democratic country is built to handle something like a pandemic. That much became clear the last two years. You need to be able to mandate strict laws that take away a lot of liberties that we have learn to consider as standard.

> No democratic country is built to handle something like a pandemic. That much became clear the last two years.

Much of the measures have been justified by saying they're temporary in place under the emergency. Two years of temporary measures, and now people are saying they need to be permanent.

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